A New American President
Spiritual Abuse (Pt.1)

Water Baptism

Water-Baptism-1280x720

Water baptism services are a terrific time with an atmosphere of celebration and joy as friends and family members gather to show their support to those taking this significant step in their spiritual journey.

Why be baptised in water?

First of all, because Jesus commanded it (see Mark 16:16. Matthew 28:16-20) and obedience to his commands is a demonstration of our love for him (John 14:15). Water baptism isn’t necessary for salvation but it’s the next step Jesus calls us to take after we choose to follow him. 

Jesus himself was baptised in water (Matthew 3:13-17), giving us an example to follow, and Christians in the first century continued the practice, most of them being baptised in water the same day they placed their trust in Christ (Acts 2:41; 8:36-38; 16:33). 

Secondly, water baptism is a meaningful spiritual experience:

  • It’s way for us to make a public confession of our faith in and commitment to Jesus Christ.
  • We have God’s name placed upon us - the family name - which is an important aspect of becoming part of God’s family, the church.
  • We identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In a symbolic but powerful way, we bury our old life of sin as we go down into the water and rise up out of the water to walk in the power of a new life. 

If you haven’t been baptised yet, what are you waiting for? Why don’t you take a step today towards doing so. Speak to someone at your local church.

For those of you who have been baptised, daily acknowledge your commitment to Christ. Take up your cross each day. Die to self and live to God. Put off the old way of living and put on Christ and the new nature. Walk in the power of your baptism.

Comments

How exhiliratingly AWESOME! Glory to God!
Thank you for sharing this good news Mark :)

May we all walk in the power of God's Holy Spirit anointing, as committed Christ followers, and walk in the Spirit, clothed with His Love.

To Know Jesus!

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss...

for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:

for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,

and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:8-11 KJV

Hi Mark,

I think that it is wonderful that so many people have been Baptised at your Church last weekend. To this, I will stand on may chair and rant like a crazy pente "Praise God". :-)

However, you need to be a little careful when you have some sombre pew sitting Lutherans lurking around this site. (Said with a 'wry grin and a twinkle in the eye').

Your statement "Repentance and faith always precede baptism, therefore Christian baptism is a “believer’s baptism.” - could be construed as at least a little divisive and in many ways like waving a red rag to a bullish paedobaptist blogger.

I humbly assert that your statement is wrong headed in that there is absolutely no (clear)concept of "Believers Baptism" and (its theological business partner 'the age of accountability') in the New Testament.

Rather what is clear is that there is ONE "Baptism" available to all who enter into the covenant of Grace and its promises - regardless of nationality, sex, age, or ability to reason!.

"Ephesians 4:4-5: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all"

(By the way, I type this with my infant daughter sitting on my head who I have made a prayerful, studied and well studied decison to bring to be Baptised this summer). :-)

Hey Lionfish. Welcome back

Yes, I'm aware that there are differences of opinion about water baptism. For me, as I read the Scriptures, I only see people being baptised who have first made a confession of faith in Christ.

So at our church we baptise believers. We dedicate children (as Jesus took children in his arms and blessed them) but only baptise them when they have come to an age of understanding to make their own decision for Christ.

I realise others see differently on this but I am happy to 'agree to disagree' - agreeably, of course :). I don't see this as a matter of truth vs heresy ... but rather of practice.

Hi Mark,

I respect your beliefs and your practice and there is much that we would agree on.

Many in the Contemporary Church / Pentcostal's that I have come across assert that baptism of infants is null and void, a lesser baptism, or worse a catholic doctrine and therefore a 'doctrine of demons' - even though it has a solid theoligical basis and has been practiced by the orthdox Christian Church throughout history (If one is interested this is outlined here: http://www.paedobaptism.com/baptisminthebible.pdf }.

Often, these people will wrongly try and 'ínfluence' the 're-baptism' of believers who have been baptised as infants - 'because it is not really a baptism'. You understand what I mean. :-)

Accordingly Mark, I am glad to hear you say: "I don't see this as a matter of truth vs heresy ... but rather of practice".

I agree. Whilst 'being baptsied' is an essential (ie. a major tenent of Chrsitian belief) - the practice (mode, age, spinkling vs immersion etc.) is only a 'minor' and should not be imposed or compared to the way other Christians practice this gift or carry out this mandate.

Hi Lionfish,

My parents baptised me as an infant, in a Lutheran Church... yet when I visited there, as an adult, the priest refused me communion! He wrongly judged me and assumed that I was NOT attending church and therefore refused to give me communion. In fact I'm also a "born-again" water baptised, Spirit filled, Bible believing Christ follower!

Your comment: >>> Whilst 'being baptsied' is an essential (ie. a major tenent of Chrsitian belief) - the practice (mode, age, spinkling vs immersion etc.) is only a 'minor' and should not be imposed or compared to the way other Christians practice this gift or carry out this mandate. <<<

I think that the the Word of God speaks for itself in the Bible, so who is man to add to it?

It was only my obedience to God through my Water Baptism that I experienced a truly transformed life that became alive to my Lord Jesus, as I died to self. His Word and love became so alive to me! Baptism is an act of OBEDIENCE (See Matt, 28:19) that should be an immediate part of our acceptance of the gift of grace offered by Jesus Christ. Repentance with one's own mouth and obedience to God's commandment is required to be baptized. How can a baby repent or obey? A Christian's baptism is a required and responsible decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. How can a baby make a responsible decision? Any BELIEVER (see Mark 16:16) who refuses baptism should truly examine his or her heart regarding their conversion. How can babies examine their hearts? Jesus Christ COMMANDS baptism for His followers. Bringing up and nuturing children with Godly wisdom and way is the parents responsibility until the child is able to decide and accept Jesus as Lord for themselves. How many babies that were baptized are walking with the Lord today? Baptism isn't an act that gets us into heaven - it is faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord that offers that assurance. How can a baby have faith?

According to the Bible, the symbolism of baptism declares that three things happen to BELIEVERS who are baptized: (1) they die with Christ to their old self; (2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and (3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11).

Matthew 28:18-20 "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to OBEY everything I have COMMANDED you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age'"


Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38 "REPENT and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, 'REPENT, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. <<< NO children mentioned! :)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' < How can a baby call on the name of the Lord?

The Truth is in the Bible. All you have to do is read it and take a look...

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church. – Vol. 2, pg. 263.

HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION

Christian baptism was administered using the words, "in the name of Jesus." – Vol. 2, pg. 377. Baptism was always in the name of Lord Jesus until time of Justin Martyr when Triune formula used. – Vol. 2, pg. 389. NAME was an ancient synonym for "person." Payment was always made in the name of some person referring to ownership. Therefore one being baptized in Jesus’ name became His personal property. "Ye are Christ’s." – Vol. 2, pg. 377 on Acts 2:38

Ps. Don't misunderstand me... I love people of all races and especially those who love our Lord Jesus Christ, no matter what their "manmade label" is :)

Hi Marija,

I am sorry to hear that you may have been wrongly refused communion. Whilst I know Lutherans take communion seriously - that is the first time that I have ever heard of that happening!

I do however, take a small level of umbridge to your inference that I need to read my Bible to see that infants should not be baptised.

To tell you the Truth, I walked away from the Lutheran Church and after some time 'in the world' came back to Christ via a militant Pentecostal Church.

I also rejected the concept of infant Baptism, infact I was (re)Baptised as an adult. I was militantly opposed to infant baptsim - because I would read the same proof texts and read the scriptures in the same way you do.

Several years later, after having children, I was prompted to study the scriptures and settle the issue for myself.

I am now convinced that God deals with both judgement and salvation on various levels including - 1) As individuals, 2) As families (houselholds), 3) As ethnic people groups (nations) and 4)As a world.

In fact, I think that the scriptures are clear that whilst individuals came to Christ and the promises of God through Baptism - so did believing households. This is in alignment with the patterns set out in covenant relationships throughout the Old Testament such as circumcision:

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. FOR THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” ACTS Ch2

I believe that it is clear that “regeneration, grafting into the Body of Christ, deliverance from satan, admission into God’s covenant, adoption, IS ALL AUTOMATICALLY CONFERRED ON A BABY DUE TO THE FAITH OF THE HOUSEHOLD.

God deals with us as individuals, yes, but also as families (households), nations etc.

“And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD”.

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Marija, If you really want to go the distance and study the scriptures as well as the practices of the majority of orthodox Christians throughout history you should start by answering the following questions:

If infant baptism is a later invention, when did it begin and who began it? Where did it originate?

Why are there no protests against the validity of infant baptism from anyone in the early Church?

Where is anything found in Scripture that expressly forbids the baptism of infants or children?

How is it that God established a covenantal, corporate relationship with the tribes of Israel in the Old Testament, but you interpret the New Testament as abolishing the faith of an entire household with the father at its head in favor of a solely individualistic faith?

Where does Scripture prescribe any age for baptism?

Even if there were a special age when someone’s faith reached “maturity,” how could one discern that? Doesn’t faith always mature? When is faith mature enough for baptism and when is it not? Who can judge?

Where in Scripture does it say that children are free from the effects of the Fall simply because they are not old enough to believe? (Even creation is under the curse of mankind’s fall - Romans 8:19-21).

What about the many Biblical meanings and early Christian understandings of baptism other than the one defining it as a visible sign of inward repentance, meanings such as the sacrament of regeneration (Titus 3:5), a grafting into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), a passage from the reign of Satan into Christ’s authority (Romans 6:17), the expression of the manifestation of God (Luke 3:21,22), an admission into God’s covenant (Colossians 2:11), the Lord’s act of adoption and our putting on of Christ (Galatians 3:26,27)? Why should these things be taken away from the small child of a Christian family?

If it was the norm to baptize children at a later age, why is there no evidence in Scripture or early Church history of instruction given to parents on how to help their adolescent children prepare for baptism?

If it is granted that baptism is for the remission of sins, why would the Church ever want to give baptism to infants if there were nothing in the infants which needed remission? Would not the grace of baptism, in this context, seem superfluous?

In essence, laying aside all the polemics and prejudices and academic intricacies, what Scriptural principle is being violated if a child is baptized and matures in his faith?


Hi Lionfish.

Thank you for your response. Sorry you feel that way. Umbrage? No offense intended. :) I was in no way inferring that you did not read your Bible, just encouraging you to take another look at baptism.

Your comment: > THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” ACTS Ch2 Why should these things be taken away from the small child of a Christian family? If it is granted that baptism is for the remission of sins, why would the Church ever want to give baptism to infants if there were nothing in the infants which needed remission? Would not the grace of baptism, in this context, seem superfluous?

In essence, laying aside all the polemics and prejudices and academic intricacies, what Scriptural principle is being violated if a child is baptized and matures in his faith? <

No it is not a sin to baptise babies, but baptism does not save you! Only your confession of faith and an ongoing personal relationship with Jesus does. So how can a baby confess this?

Babies/childen are covered by a believing household until such a time when they can confess Jesus as Lord and repent of their sin with their own mouth and be baptised as a committed Christ follower. This covering is called DEDICATION, even as young Samuel was dedicated to God by Hannah his mother and father.

Jesus said, Let the little children come and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." - Matthew 21:16

It's the responsibility of the parents to train up a child, with godly wisdom to stir up their faith and lead them in the way of the Lord.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. -Prov. 22:6

But baptism is a personal commitment to serve Jesus. It's a personal conviction and none can stand in your place to do it for you. There is no age bracket for confessing your faith in Jesus and making a commitment to serve Him by being baptised, but one has to be old enough to make that decision and able to speak for oneself. No one can decide for you whether or not to have faith in Jesus or repent of your sins. It's a personal confession and a personal relationship.

All I'm saying is that when an infant is baptised it does not guarantee that when they get older they will be walking with the Lord. Repentance of sins and making a decision to serve God as a committed Christ follower is made by one who knows what they are doing and a baby has no such knowledge nor can a baby make such a confession of their faith with their mouth as required.

Romans 10:9 says: If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 10:27-30 Those who are the Lord's sheep cannot be plucked out of Jesus' or his Father's hands. "My sheep LISTEN to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

It is up to each person to make their own individual choice on this matter and listen to the Lord's voice. God will never force Himself on you to choose Him and His ways.

Baptism does not guarantee salvation! Only those who hold onto their faith till the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."

2 Timothy 2:12 "if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us"

If we don't persevere, we will show that we never shared in Christ and our baptism is made void - as if we were never saved.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever HEARS my word and BELIEVES him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Conclusion: One must hear the Word to believe and confess it! One must believe and have faith in Christ to be regenerated, (be baptised, made into a new creation, "born-again") this is clearly taught in the Scriptures. This does not mean that the baby is left defenseless and unprotected in a believers household. All children are under the covering of the faith in Jesus that is upheld by the adults in a household until such a time when they can confess with their own mouth that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

How many adults are still going strong in the faith and walking with the Lord who were baptised as infants? Do you think that they will keep their salvation because their parent's are Christians and baptised them as babies?

Shalom my friend. Blessings in Jashua Ha Mashiach.

Marija,

I have also understood the concept of Baptism from the mindset "Believer's Baptsim" in the past - as presented by yourself.

As my faith has matured - I have learned that Baptism is much broader, deeper, much more beautiful, more mysterious and much more powerful than I previously thought.

Marija - Your worldview is framed in a way "that Baptism does not save us". I would urge you to take a fresh look at this.

I would argue from the scriptures that Baptism is much more than an act of obedience (ie. "something we do"). or somthing that is symbolic of what has happened in a believer's heart - rather it may well have 'salvific' qualities (refer scriptures below).

Conclusion: Baptism is an essential part of the 'faith mix' which saves us. As with 'Hearing the Word' which brings faith - Baptism is a 'means of Grace' in which God can cleanse us from sin and place or strengthen the gift of faith in us that has its source in Him .

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Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism.

The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1

Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

WOW! Excellent scripture references Lionfish! :)Thank you for the explanations.
Shalom my friend. Enjoy your day.

WOW! Excellent scripture references. Thank you for the explanation Lionfish. :)
One never stops learning. There is so much of God to know. HMmmmm?

Shalom my friend. Enjoy your day.

Hi Marija,

I can't take credit for the scriptures - I pulled it from another site explaining infant Baptism.

When we take the time to dig a little deeper and dialogue we all grow. It causes us to do our homework and test our own assumpitions - and if necessary change our beliefs - or at least empathise with an alternative point of view.

Just on your point re: People wandering away from the faith when they are baptised as infants.

I think that the parable of the sower illustrates what happens when God dispenses his word through the various means (spoken word/hearing, baptism etc). Whilst we believe that Baptism is part of our salvation - that does not mean ónce saved always saved'.

In addition, many, many people who are Baptised or make resposnes to álter calls' as adolescents or adults fall away also.

Imagine how large your typical megachurch would be if all of those responding to an alter call remained in faith. If 20 (over 3- 4 services) people responding to an alter call each week remained - then the Church would grow by 10,000 people per decade. With few exceptions, large Churches seem to plateau far below this number ...

So in conclusion - it is not the age that people recieve baptism that really has bearing on people remianing in faith - rather, I believe, it is hard heartedness and/or not recieving the necessary nurturing through a faith community or family.

Hi Lionfish,
I respect your opinion but I'll stick to what the Bible says & God's Holy Spirit who leads us into ALL truth.

How does one partake of Jesus, the Tree of Life?

He enabled us to be "born again" of water through water baptism.

In John 10:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

No sin is too great to be forgiven. God is ready to pardon everyone who turns back to Him and SEEKS cleansing. BUT you must first accept Jesus Christ and His gospel of salvation, CONFESS your sins before God, and determine to follow Jesus in humble obedience to His Word!

Water baptism is an important point of obedience in the life of a believer. Babies have no understanding or knowledge, so they cannot choose until they reach an "age of reason and understanding"

Infants cannot accept Jesus, nor confess their sin for lack of understanding and knowledge!

How can one be saved without repentance?

“REPENT,” the apostle Peter tells us, “and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” - Acts 2:38

The Bible calls baptism the “washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5) because it effects a spiritual transformation. When you are IMMERSED in the living water, your sinful nature dies and is buried with Jesus, and you are clothed with a new life— the life of Jesus Christ (Col 2:11-13).

The moment you come up out of the water, you become a new being who has escaped the punishment of your sins and possesses the hope of eternal life. The mystery of baptism lies in the profound unity of water, blood, and the Holy Spirit!

1 Peter 1:23: Being "born again," not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever.
Here the Holy Spirit clearly links the process of being born again to the Word of God.

There are basically 3 components to receiving the new birth:

1. *REPENTANCE

Repentance, the first component, means to change or turn around. TRUE REPENTANCE means recognizing that your sinful life is wrong and that a change of heart, attitude and direction is required. To REPENT is to reject evil. HOW CAN AN INFANT DO THAT!?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, NO: but, except you REPENT, you shall all likewise perish.

2. *BELIEVE in Jesus

The second component of the New Birth process is BELIEVING in the deity and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom. 10:9 That if you shall *CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall *BELIEVE in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

3. *CONFESS Jesus as Lord

The third component of the New Birth involves your MOUTH. You must use it to sincerely *CONFESS Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. When you BELIEVE on Jesus with your heart and *CONFESS Him with your mouth you are partaking of the Tree of Life. JESUS IS our TREE OF LIFE.

Rom. 10:10 For with the heart man *BELIEVES unto righteousness; and with the mouth *CONFESSION is made unto salvation. **********

The Miracle of the New Birth

You now know the three steps a person must take in order to be born again. However, you must understand that these steps do not cause the new birth to happen. It is a miracle that can only be performed by the Holy Spirit! By God's grace we are saved and forgiven!

When you take these steps you give the Holy Spirit permission and freedom to do what only He can do.

If a person could be saved by merely following a 3-step formula, salvation would be based on works rather than God's grace.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Your *heart-belief and *mouth-confession simply bring the Holy Spirit on the scene to create the miracle of the new birth.

The Spirit of truth lives in ALL God's children who leads them into ALL truth. All the best in your quest for the truth.

This matter is settled in my heart. I know who and how I believe. Thank you for the dialogue. Blessings to you in Jashua Ha Mashiach.

Shalom.... Uu revoir ... Yasoo :)

Agreeing with you Mark. Thank you for the great news! Praying for all those who were baptised to be strengthened by God's Holy Spirit to enable them to run the race of faith well and endure with patient perseverence till Jesus comes.

Hi Marija

You say: “I respect your opinion BUT I'll stick to what the Bible says & God's Holy Spirit who leads us into ALL truth”

Hmmm. You infer that what I said was not Truth and not what the Bibles says…?

I am disappointed because I have only based my case for infant baptism upon what the Bible says … I have not even ventured into the writings of the Early Church fathers! :-)

Yesterday, your worldview was framed in a way that said “Baptism does not save us". I urged you to take a fresh look at this – and presented you with “what the Bible said” and you learned that your belief was in fact a misconception – and Baptism is an essential part of the faith mix that does in fact save us!

Today you assert that: “Infants cannot accept Jesus, nor confess their sin for lack of understanding and knowledge!”

Again this is a misconception – infants can have faith, albeit not faith that is coupled with the intellectual powers of reasoning of a more mature person – but saving faith none-the-less.
Consider John the Baptist who had faith from the womb:

“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.”
“And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Consider what Jesus said abut infants

“But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children (paidion) crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read, ‘ OUT OF THE MOUTH OF BABES (NAPION) AND NURSING INFANTS (THALAZONTON) You have perfected praise’?”


There are plenty of examples in the scriptures that show that believers can be filled with the Spirit, know God, be known by God as well as respond and praise God from even before and during infancy!

Source: A Lutheran Pastor’s Blog that deals with infancy and faith:

http://www.extremetheology.com/2006/06/infant_faith_a_.html

Conclusion: It is a misconception that Children cannot have faith and accept Jesus as their Saviour – despite their lack of mature reasoning and intellectual faculties. There is no evidence in the Bible that Baptism should be withheld from Children in a believing household until they reach a so called age of reasoning / accountability. Infact, there is a sense of urgency that when an individual was converted, the believer and his entire household were baptized!.

This is all from the Bible ... study deeper my friend. :-)

More tomorrow…

Lionfish/Marija - maybe start your own blog?

Hi Charlie,

Welcome to the conversation. Forgive me for my long comments on baptism. Have you anything more to add on this subject? Thank you for your advice, but I already have my own blog and group website :) Is there a problem here?

Shalom in Jashua Ha Mashiach... Have a nice day.
Marija

Lionfish,
in scouring through these blogs and your comments I notice such blatant discrepancy. On a previous post regarding tithing you accused Mark of
"manipulating scripture to teach tithing which does not stand up to correct biblical interpretation" - (first of all, I think Mark teaches a giving/tithing principle) - nowhere is tithing abolished in the NT - yet your interpretation says that it is manipulation to teach it?
Now you pull threads at infant baptism to make some sort of case for it from circumcision or household baptisms - even though there is no clear indication of scripture.
You are obviously taken by the church fathers? Here is there input on tithing:Basil of Caesarea (370 AD) exhorted Christians to pay tithe, Hilary of Poitiers (366 AD) said tithing is still necessary. Jerome saw the clergy in line with Levi and priesthood and said they were due tithes, on commenting on Malachi 3 he said that Christians should sell all and give to the poor, seeing they won't do that they should "at least imitate the rudimentary teaching of the Jews."Ambrose was unequivocal that Christians are required to tithe. John Chrysostom said Christians of his day should return to tithing or face serious consequences. Augustine, like Jerome believed Christians should sell all, if not, at least tithe.

Personally I am neither here or there in regards to the practice of tithing or infant baptism. What I do question is your ridicule of one regarding Biblical Interpretation of a practice, while you condone another that is even more difficult to interpret. It seems like there is a bent in all of us to make the Bible say what we like it to say?

O - I really do have to laugh now. You exhort Mark to be careful not be "divisive" on his own blog regarding baptism? While you, and I suspect your cronies, absolutely melt the eyebrows of anyone on the tithing issue on another post? Your concern for Christian charity would be moving if it was practiced. This is really quite funny.

Hi Marija,

It looks as though the pot has been stirred :-)

You should feel no obligation to apologize – Mark has left his blog open for comments and discussion, - your own comments have sent me away to study things for myself and sharpen my own mind on these matters. If this blog cannot handle open, honest and robust discussion then we can dialogue else where.
I was thinking today I want to make one last point, as you said:

“If a person could be saved by merely following a 3-step formula, salvation would be based on works rather than God's grace. (My comment: True).

You quote: “Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast”.

Your next statement is what I find troubling … “Your *heart-belief and *mouth-confession simply bring the Holy Spirit on the scene to create the miracle of the new birth”. Similarly, you stated earlier that “It was only my obedience to God through my Water Baptism …”.

If it were to be our confession that brought the Holy Spirit - in other words a faith that has its source in us – then this could be attributed to our own works.

My understanding now is that Faith is a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit must first be present in order to impart/strengthen/awaken/convict the belief/confession in a person (regardless of age).

We must be careful not to create an impression that Baptism is of our works… brighter minds than mine put it this way:

“…the Scriptures everywhere describe Baptism, that is, as a divine, not a human, work. We reject any implication that baptism is a human work, one that we do in order to earn salvation. On the contrary, we hold that the Scriptures teach that baptism is God's precious gift through which He works to impart His saving grace revealed to us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who alone is our Savior. In a word, Baptism is a marvelous testimony to the unmerited grace of God”. Source: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4645

Have a great weekend.

Hi JFK,
You are quite right when you state "It seems like there is a bent in all of us to make the Bible say what we like it to say".

To a degree, you are correct. This is why I feel compelled to present an alternative case when people ignorantly or arrogantly make statements or inferences "like ïnfant baptism is NOT a valid baptism".

If you want to discuss any points I have raised in a reasonable manner and tone (eg. Household Baptism) then let me know, and time permitting I will walk you point-by-point through the detail - as I have done with Marija.

Anyway, you sound like an intelligent guy (girl) and I look forward to discussing the Tithing 'principle' (or is it a 'practice'?) with you on the forthcoming tithing thread. :-)

No thanks, Lionfish. I have become wary of religious experts who are so intent on removing the specks of erroneous doctrine from the eye of their neighbour. I also would find it very hard to understand your idea of "reasonable manner", as i just read another blog that you are part of. Their version of reasonable is a bit like a pack of hungry wolves after blood. I am assuming that is not your understanding of "reasonable" now?

Hi JKR -

I did expect that you would defer to an avoidant behaviour style and elect to evade further discussion.

For the record, I have no problems being associated with blogs such as Signposts or its various incarnations. Yes, there is hurt - and yes it is often manifested in anger, but the fact that the guys commenting are asking hard questions of the networked Contemporary/WoF Church and its Leadership and that they don’t suffer fools does not undermine their authenticity or the legitimacy of their inquiry.

When I started asking questions after the BRW’s ‘God’s Millionaires’ article appeared in June 2005, it was the network of people (many ex-Contemporary/WoF Church) that I met through Signposts who answered many of the questions on the modus-operandi of the contemporary Church – when the Church Leaders stone walled requests for information. If ever, I had to make a choice, I would trust many of the regular commentators on Signposts etc to watch ‘my back in the trenches' than many of the Leaders in the Contemporary Church.

Respectfully, after the tone and sentiment of your previous comments, it does appear a little self righteous of you to cast dispersion on the credibility of others commenting on these blogs.

Hi Lionfish(R. Mackenzie) :)

Just a question for you, if I may?
Have you been baptized as a born-again believer?

In answer to *your question:

>If infant baptism is a later invention, when did it begin and who began it? Where did it originate?<

You'll find the answers in the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA!

Here the Catholics acknowledged that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church! – Vol. 2, pg. 263.

Acts 8:12 says, "When they BELIEVED Phillip... they proceeded to be baptized, both MEN and WOMEN..."

*Later on, after the first original Church, Origen, (185-254 C.E.) wrote: "It is the CUSTOM of the church that baptism be administered EVEN to infants." (Selection from the Commentaries and Homilies of Origen, Madras, India; 1929, p. 211) This practice was confirmed by the Third Council of Carthage (253 C.E.)

*Religious historian Augustus Neander wrote:
"FAITH and BAPTISM are ALWAYS connected with one another; and thus it is in the highest degree probable... that the practice of infant baptism was unknown at this period in the first century... That it first became recognised as an apostolic TRADITION in the course of the third century, is evidence rather against than for admission of its apostolic origin." (History of the Planting and Training of the Christian Church by the Apostles. (New York, 1864) P. 162.)

To baptize babies, who cannot make their own response to Jesus, undervalues repentance and faith in Him, without which a person cannot be a Christian.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 7 of children being sanctified by the faith of a parent... and the unbelieving parent also! This is NOT to be taken as evidence that either the children or the unbelieving parent were baptized. There is NO evidence that the early church viewed baptism applied to infants of Christians in the same way as circumcision which marked Jews as the children of the covenant. On the contrary, Paul puts baptism and faith in opposition to circumcision under the law. Christians do not need circumcision, says Paul, since the great sacrifice was offered by Jesus, as our passover Lamb, the power of which we know through our conversion and baptism. Children should be brought up, by believing parents, as part of the fellowship of faith, to learn about Jesus and grow towards a mature faith.

A NEW COVENANT MADE WITH GOD...
In the Old Testament God's covenant with the Jewish people was saeled in circumcision. In baptism God seals His promise of an unbreakable new covenant, based on Jesus sacrificial death for us and His resurrection. It's a sign to us that God's eternal promise has been made.

Baptism & faith go hand in hand and are validated upon our public confession to accept Jesus as Lord & Savior. A believers Baptism with repentance is a burial to our sinful nature & being born-again to a new abiding life in Christ, upon our confession of faith in Jesus, by whose blood our sins are forgiven & washed away.
Only by putting our faith in Jesus Christ our Messiah could our sins be forgiven. Baptism is a public declaration of receiving Christ as Lord and Saviour giving evidence to our faith.

Acts 22:16 says, "RISE, get baptized and wash your sins away by your CALLING upon His Name."

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.
The blood of Jesus cleanses believers from sin and makes us righteous and clean, as if we had never sinned.

"He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

"For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

You must KNOW that you are a sinner to REPENT and TRUST Jesus for your salvation, which we receive by His grace, as a free GIFT.

When a person becomes a Christian through repentance and faith in Jesus, where does baptism come in?

Can a person be fully Christian without experiencing personal conversion in repentance?

Enjoy your week and be blessed...

Shalom in Jashua HaMashiach :)

Hi Marija,

My friend - i will respond to your assertion that infant baptism is merely an introduced 'tradition' and that baptism was çhanged'by the Catholic Church on the weekend. (I have to write some Memo's for work tonight).

In the meantime, would you kindly explain to me where Baby Dedication began and where it was practiced in the Bible (specifically the New Testament)?.

Have a great evening, my friend.

Hi Lionfish,

Hope you managed to get through writing your memos for work.

The word BAPTISM means "to overwhelm, dip, submerge, immense." It does not mean "to pour or sprinkle."

The first recorded instance of "infant baptism" was when the Roman Emperor Valens insisted his dying son be "baptized" - in the year 370 AD. The church caved into his fears and baptized the infant. Today churches continue to cave into parental fears and "baptize" babies.

This is unscriptural! The mode of "sprinkling" was not sanctioned until 1311 AD by the Council of Ravenna. They had no right to change Scripture.

The Dedication of our children is a Biblical Practice.

Mary presented Jesus, her first born son to the LORD in Jerusalem. Mary and Joseph presented Jesus back to God in an act of worship and dedication. Jesus was not baptized till He was 30 years old, but was presented when he was eight!

New Testament: Luke 2:21-22, "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the LORD;"

Paul reminded Timothy of his spiritual heritage in 2 Timothy 1:5 and 3:15

In the Old Testament, Hannah, the mother of Samuel dedicated her son to the Lord in this story:

1 Samuel 1:24-28, "And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young. And they slew a bullock, and brought the child to Eli. And she said, Oh my lord, as thy soul liveth, my lord, I am the woman that stood by thee here, praying unto the LORD. For this child I prayed; and the LORD hath given me my petition which I asked of him: Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there."

In Mark 10:13-16... Jesus took the children in His arms, put His hand on them and blessed them.

Hope this information sheds more light to explain why baby dedication instead of baby baptism. Thank you for the civil manner in which this discussion has been conducted. It's a pleasure to dialogue with you. Mark has been very gracious to allow this open forum where people can discuss things relating to his articles. Good night...
Shalom my friend.

Wow - we have quite a discussion here on the various practices of water baptism! Needless to say, I rejoice for the 49 people who were baptised recently and pray that this experience will be a powerful part of their ongoing commitment to follow Christ.

Hi Marija and Lionfish,

Not sure whether this has been covered but something my Pastor in Hong Kong told us about baptism is that some believe that if a child dies without baptism - they go to hell. Our Pastor would put it this way (paraphrasing). My God is loving and kind and does not send babies to hell. It is only when a person knows the difference between right and wrong that God judges them. Baptism is a public confession that you have died to your old self (submerged) and are committed to new life in Christ. If this concept of baptism is correct - how can a baby do this? Keeping in mind you must first confess Christ as Lord.

Hi Marija,

Again you raise many good points. Answering your comments and objections is a bit like eating an elephant ... I will have to do it one small bite at a time. And over a few days...

ON ORIGEN AND "TRADITION"

Origen is one of the earliest extra-biblical historical records that the early practiced infant Baptism.

In his commentary on Romans, Origen explains that we all innately possess sin's defilement. It was in recognition of this that the early church baptised infants. Origen writes, "It is on this account as well that the Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit."(Commentaries on Romans 5:9)

As Protestants, I think because of our bent towards 'Sola Scripture' we flee every time we see the term "tradition". We associate "Tradition" with pointy hats and flowing robes and religious symbols and rites that were introduced by man with no direct connection to scripture.

Tradition, in a sense is not wrong, in fact it is right if it points us to Christ. Christmas is a tradition - we celebrate it. Thanksgiving is a tradition we (Lutherans) celebrate it. It really means the stuff we do again, and again and again - and we pass down to our kids, and them to their kids.

Even Jesus kept traditions and customs. In Luke 4:16 we read: "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, AS WAS HIS CUSTOM. And he stood up to read...".

Tradition, by definition means "the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition" or in a theological sense "(among Christians) a body of teachings, or any one of them, held to have been delivered by Christ and His apostles but not originally committed to writing".

Now, back to Origen who was living within a generation or two of the original Apostles. and he was relating the fact that the Apostles recognised the meaning and power of Baptism, the part it plays in the remission of sins and the fact that even infants require forgiveness and remmsion from the curse of sin. This is why, as Origen records that the Apostles practiced infant Baptism and handed it down to futre generations.

Bear in mind, Origen's is not the earliest recorded mention of infant Baptism. "Irenaeus (130 - 200), some 35 years later in 185, writes in Against Heresies II 22: 4 that Jesus "came to save all through means of Himself - all. I say, who through him are born again to God - infants and children, boys and youth, and old men."


Hi AR,

You raise a delicate issue.

I believe, that the (Baptised, believing, faithful) Christian and his household is blessed because he knows that he they have the assurance of salvation that comes with being part of the covenant of Grace.

So are all Babies automtaically saved? The Bible is silent on this matter, so I do not know.

My thoughts ...

On one hand, lllustrations from scripture (admittedly from the OT) show that Children are subject to God's Judgement. The world was wiped out by a world-wide flood - surely this included the Children of people who did not heed Noah's warning and enter the three-tiered Ark (which represented salvation in a time of global judgement. Likewise in the time of Moses, the (first born) Children of the Egyptians who were not covered by the blood of the Lam (on their door posts) passed as the Angel of death flew over. Additionally, God ordered the execution of entire poeple groups such as the Amalekites....

However, on the other hand, Jesus showed kindness to Children and blessed them saying that the kingdom of heaven belonged to such as these. Additionally, God also makes provision for those not exposed to the Gospel to be judges according to their hearts and conscience. Romans 2:15.

As the Bible does not explicitly state that all Children "automatically go to heaven", I personally think that:

1: God is a Loving God.
2: God is Perfectly Just
3: God is All Knowing
4: God is eternal ...

Because of these things, and I am not a Universalist, but I believe that salvation is bigger, wider, deeper that we may have traditionally been led to believe. It seems in Romans God even has a cryptic salvation plan for all Isreal who rejected him! ie.:

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved...".

However, this should not lead use to be complacent in spreading the Good News - and encourage people to respond to the call of the Gospel, both themselves and with their children and come into to the "promise of salvation":

"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Hi Lionfish,

Thank you for sharing your views. It's been a real pleasure to amicably discuss baptism with you. This will be my last post on this subject.

Yes, the word of God DOES say "..The PROMISE is for you and your children and for all who are far off..." This verse does NOT qualify baptism for infants, it's just a PROMISE for ALL generations!

The conclusion is that our baptism becomes meaningless unless we continue having a personal relationship with God to live an abiding life in Christ Jesus. Indeed, one who CHOOSES to be baptized is "born again" to live an abiding abundant life in Christ. But if one does not respond to this Grace– if one returns to the deeds of darkness– he is like one who is "stillborn."

Listen to the parable that is written for this day. The wise virgins were prepared with their oil lamps full and trimmed to be able to come to the Lord's wedding feast.

The ten virgins represent those who are baptized.
Five were wise and 5 were NOT!(Read Matthew 25:1-12)

It is not enough to say, "Lord, Lord…" Jesus says, "Only the one who does the will of my Father" will enter heaven... (Matthew 7:21).


Salvation is God's FREE gift of His gracious LOVE that is available to ALL REPENTANT sinners who would BELIEVE in Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior in order to RECEIVE this FREE gift.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8)

Making a CHOICE, that God's grace lovingly allows us to have, is NOT classed as WORKS!

God does NOT MAKE anyone have faith nor FORCES anyone to receive salvation, even though He is in control. By His amazing GRACE and His incredible LOVE He gives us a choice to choose, and lovingly disciplines His children to stear them in the right direction when they place themselves in danger!

By faith God's LOVE moves each recipient to repentance ... BUT they MAKE a CHOICE to leave behind their "old life" through baptism and pursue a moral "NEW life" (being "born-again") which following and ABIDING in Christ implies. God's LOVE ALWAYS graciously gives us a CHOICE to CHOOSE. No one can make that decision on our behalf to accept Jesus. It involves a personal relationship and a personal choice.

The generosity of God’s gracious mercy and patience with us is incredibly breathtakingly awesome!

I will not be discussing this subjest any further. God's truth is settled in my heart.

Shalom my friend. Think about the choice God gave us and be baptized in Jesus. Blessings in Jashua HaMashiach.

Hi Another Reason.

Thank you for sharing your comments. Totally agree with what your pastor said.

Shalom...Have a great weekend :)

If children, made in God's image, beckoned by Jesus and told that the Kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these, beyond the ability of conscious choice or knowledge, are condemned to hell, then grace is meaningless.
And there is no hope for calculating, forever stumbling, mistake-ridden adults.

Marija,
Thanks for the dialogue. We were never going to get a resolution to the issue as to whether infants should be included in Baptism - or whether Baptism is for adult believers only.
Wikipedia rightly puts it this way:

“The disagreement about infant baptism is grounded in differing theological views at a more basic level. Christians disagree about infant baptism because they disagree about the nature of faith, the role of baptism, the means of salvation, the nature of grace, and the function of the sacraments. Pedobaptism and credobaptism are positions which bubble up from theological views at a more fundamental level of one's theological system”.

You can read a great summary that briefly compares and contrasts the two views here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism

I have always believed that the Contemporary Church could learn much from exploring the beliefs of the mainline and traditional churches and vis-à-vis.

My aim has not been to undermine your beliefs about Baptism, nor to convert you - but rather to demonstrate that infant baptism is not merely an ‘opinion’, or a man-made tradition. Rather it is deeply rooted in the scriptures and is recorded in the theological writings of believers from very early in Church history.

And we as Christians under the same Lord should get intentional abut showing more respect for the alternate viewpoint. It can only broaden our own faith.

In a nutshell, our own conviction about Baptism should be placed in the Romans 14 "bucket".

Have a great weekend.

Hi Petra,

Likewise, at a basic level, our world views on the impact that original sin that 'one man brought into the world' will obviously differ.

Because Jesus died so that Grace is available to all of creation, infants and adults alike - is never meaningless.

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