Discussing homosexuality ...

This weekend I will be interviewing Deb Hirsch at our church. Deb and her husband Alan Hirsch led a Christian community in St. Kilda for over fifteen years, reaching out to street people, the poor, and the gay community, of which Deb was a part of before coming to Christ at the age of twenty-one. They now live in the USA where God has opened many doors of influence for them. Deb is currently writing a book on the subject of sexuality, with a specific focus on homosexuality.

I’m sure our conversation will be informative, challenging, and helpful. It won’t answer every question nor will it be the last word on every aspect of sexuality. Not everyone will agree with everything that is said. Some people may even feel a bit uncomfortable even talking about this. However, our desire is to bring some of these important issues about sexuality out into the open ... and hopefully there will be more conversations and discussions that continue as a result.

When it comes to homosexuality, there has been a range of responses from the Christian church. Some people are highly judgmental, placing homosexual behaviour way up there near the top of the imaginary totem pole of 'sins'. Others go in the other direction and affirm homosexual behaviour as 'okay', resulting in the ordination of gay ministers and the establishment of gay churches. Then there are lots of people somewhere between these two extremes.

The topic of homosexuality raises lots of difficult but important questions:

1. What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

2. Where does same-sex attraction come from? Is it genetic or environmentally caused? Are people born gay or do they become gay?

3. Can a person's sexual orientation change and if so, how?

4. If a follower of Christ has feelings of same-sex attraction, what can or should they do about it?

5. How should a parent or family member respond if a son/daughter or family member says, "I'm gay."

6. How should the church community respond and relate to those with same-sex attraction?

7. How should the church community respond and relate to the overall gay community in society, especially the more militant gays pushing for more gay rights, gay marriage, and the adoption of children?

8. What is the future for the church and the matter of sexuality? What attitudes/practices need to change? What does God desire?

We'll be exploring these types of questions in our interview.

Tomorrow: a list of resources related to the topic of homosexuality.

Comments

[Drew]

Basically, I believe that we should help the homosexuality by embracing them just as they are.

We may not understand their actions, but we must love them.

[Marija Thornton]

Hi Drew,

Yes, God loves everyone and we're called to love everyone the same and share God's merciful grace that we ourselves have received, but the Almighty God is a holy and righteous God who desires everyone to be holy. Our Father God is a God of transformation and restoration... We need to always refer to the Word of God for guidance and truth... It's so easy to go with the flow against the Word of God and agree with everyone. Isn't it? Loving people does not necessarily mean that we have to agree with their lifesyles. Think about it. Shalom... have a nice day.

[F. Lokot]

I really enjoyed the interview you did with Deb Hirsch tonight. It was so informative and compassionate. Such a relevant topic, dealt with so mercifully and kindly and without scapegoating any one group of people. Thanks for that!

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

An appeal was made by Deb Hirsch for Christians to accept 'our gay brothers.'

How can someone be a 'gay brother?'

He can be a friend, relative or acquaintance who is gay but brother-in-Christ?

What next -- do we also embrace 'adulterous brother,' 'paedophile brother,' 'murderous brother,' 'greedy brother,' 'drunkard brother,' 'slanderer brother,' 'incestuous brother,' 'debauched brother' and 'pornographic brother?' How about ‘thief sister,’ ‘prostitute sister,’ ‘pothead sister,’ ‘gossiper sister’ and ‘lesbian sister?’

If one understands correctly, Dev Hirsch also argues that some 'believers' may never be healed of their homosexual orientation. But the Lord says 'if any man be in Christ he is a new creation. The old is gone, the new has come.'

She also refers to homosexuality as 'a brokenness.'
But in Romans, the Lord calls it 'his wrath against mankind.'

What is the true Christian experience? How does the Bible define sin? Does Jesus Christ by His death on the cross and through the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives set us free from bondages such as homosexuality and criminal tendencies, or does He not?

What is our boast then if a man comes to Christ and is still a slave to sin? For clearly if someone doesn't act out his sexual behaviour but in his mind still continues to lust after persons of the same sex, he is still a slave to sin. The battle is in his mind, the battle is lust, and he has lost it.

The interview with Deb Hirsch is shameful. It dishonoured God. God's word wasn't preached. God's word wasn't consulted. Instead, we heard the views of one woman who glossed over this grievous sin and at the end of it encouraged us to applaud men and women who are struggling to be recognized as Christians whilst yet flirting with homosexuality in their minds.

The Lord says 'those whom the Son has set free, is free indeed.' Has Deb Hirsch fully comprehended the breadth and length and depth of this liberty that is found in Christ? Has she experienced this reality in her 'ministry?' Has she met a man or woman fully transformed by the Holy Spirit, fully regenerated, so that he or she no longer lusts after same-sex activities and experiences?

If she has, why are these victorious men and women not the benchmark for her ministry? Is she attempting to widen the ‘narrow way’ under the guise of compassion? If so, it is humanistic and deadly, and Christians who love purity and holiness must reject it.

One can recognize the humanity of a paedophile without allowing the paedophile the right to babysit our children. By the same token, one can recognize the humanity of the homosexual offender without allowing the homosexual offender privileges afforded to those who obey moral injunctions in the Bible.

[Mark Conner]

Just to clarify ...

1. In evangelism, acceptance always precedes repentance. Jesus loved and accepted Zaccheus before he changed, as did the father to the prodigal son. We are to do the same with all people we seek to reach with God's love.

2. There is a difference between homosexual behaviour and homosexual attraction, just as there is a difference between sex outside of marriage and temptation. The interview made it clear that homosexual behaviour is sinful, according to the Bible. However, attraction in and of itself is not, just as temptation is not sin.

3. This was an interview, not a Bible study. However, the Bible's teaching on homosexuality was referred to and upheld (e.g. the story of Sodom, the Mosaic Law, and Paul's teachings).

4. Once a person becomes a follower of Christ, yes, they are a new creation (justification). One day we will be perfect (glorification). In the mean time we are in the process of change (sanctification). During this time we all strugggle to 'put off' the old and 'put on' the new. With Christ's help we can overcome sin.

For those with same-sex attraction, Deb said that the focus should be on Christ and following him (discipleship). During that process, some see a change take place in their orientation (Deb herself has and many others do too). Others may not (this is the reality) and may have to remain as celebate singles.

The goal of this interview was to raise some of the key issues, encourage people to think and pray about them further, encourage going discussion and learning, and to move people away from the extremes of both judgmentalism (the 'God hates fages' variety of people) and sympathy (liberalism) to a more balanced approach - which understands the narrowness of truth and the width of grace.

Hopefully we accomplished this.

[Neither Homer nor the Family Guy]

No one should be called brother or sister that does not live the "victorious Christian life" - triumphant and fully healed, fully free: no more calling 'brother' or 'sister' with anyone not under that label
- no more people with issues of greed (wiping out so many hyper 'faith' Christian leaders)
- no more people with pride (wiping out so many more church goers)
- no more people struggling with food addictions and gluttony (wiping out most of the western world)
- no more people that are not totally free, healed and triumphant over issues relating to lust (thoughts, etc)
- no coveting, gossiping, slanderous people (wiping out most people involved in any form of Christianity)
- no more sick people that do not experience total healing

Oh Hell, look, there's no one left except me :) How righteous am I!
At least I can recognise everyone else's humanity - thank God they're not my brother or sister. I am so triumphant.

Religious homophobia: Priceless

[i cannot think of a good pseudo name]

Neither Paul or Appollos, its funny that you label these people we shouldn't embrace such a an adulturous brother or a greedy brother. Funny you say greedy brother when you apart of a a country where you are in the top 10% of the worlds wealthiest and the 20% of the most wealthy people in the world consume 80% of the worlds resources. That sounds kind of greedy to me. But the point is that Jesus came to show that we need to stop seeing the sin instead of person. When Jesus was around prostitutes; I don't believe he saw prostitutes, I believe he saw the heart and the person behind it. This is what we sometimes fail to do today. And in regards to all your other labels; I am sure you probably would fit into one of them. But like Mark said, it is not like once we become christians we never sin again and never struggle with anything. This life is a journey we we thrive and pursue to become the way God has called us to be but it takes time and some things we wont conquer in this life time. And thats what deb was saying about homosexuals, once they do become aware of Gods grace just like you and me have, they are now on their own journey to transforming their life around and they need help and acceptance just like you and me do. And sometimes they cant break their sexual attraction which is a reality. And I don't understand how you can say Deb dishonored God; if anything this is one of the most real and truthful messages of Gods heart and for a lot of us it was a real wake up. I think you should maybe go and open your Bible and read about Jesus before you start saying these statements. Because what you might see is that it is all about a God who is all about People, and homosexuals are people.

[Lynn Moresi]

I think we had better be very careful at CityLife Church or we will get a reputation for accepting and befriending sinners, drunkards and sexual perverts..... Do we really want that label?? Do we really want all the outcasts in society hanging around us?? Do we really want all those people with all those ugly, (and potentially dangerous), problems messing up our nice, supportive, friendly, spiritual home, and maybe even influencing our godly environment?? If we are not very, very careful, people with 'issues' will start to feel comfortable in our community. If we're not really, really, careful, we might actually start to look like Jesus! (Matt 11:19 And I, the Son of Man, feast and drink, and you say, 'He's a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of the worst sort of sinners!' But wisdom is shown to be right by what results from it."NLT )

[Nicole Conner]

What a fantastic weekend/interview. Gilbert Bilezikian in his endorsement of Gregory Boyd's book "Repenting of Religion" says this: "The local church is called to be God's community of redemption rather than the exclusive clique of rejection it has often become. This is a prophetic call to repentance." Deb and Al are prophetic voices to the christian community reminding us that Jesus is the epi-centre of all we are as the people of God. I pray that CityLife would be identified and criticised by our ability to have the open arms of our Heavenly Father, and not the self-righteous stance of the older brother (who was just as lost as the younger one).

[Marija Thornton]

Mark and Nicole, well said! Oh, how I miss you all at City Life.

[John Atkins]

Amen, Lynn.

I think one word used during the discussion was "tension". Perhaps the problem is that we often see "tension" as a need to "play-off" one thing, such as Truth, against something else, such as Grace, as in a tug-of-war. Thus, it might be drawn as a line with Grace at one end and Truth at the other. That is, to permit more Grace, we have to give a bit of Truth and vice-versa. This sort of play-off is only possible where you have true opposites (eg light and dark, etc). This is an unhelpful model.

Truth and Grace are essentially independent and so a more appropriate model seems to be of "interplay - both Truth and Grace" rather than "play-off - either Truth or Grace or a mixture to produce balance". Thus, we could draw a graph with Truth as one axis and Grace on another axis at right-angles and look at the effects of the interplay, as it affects our outlook and its outcomes. I find that Jesus (fully Grace and fully Truth) is at the top right-hand corner of our graph. Where do we stand? (I hate "tags" and so I won't place some of the other worldviews on this graph.) So, there is no need for a trade-off as we need All Truth and All Grace and many other things, too. I think this is the meaning of Mark's clarification above and his use of the term "balanced approach".

Thanks again, Mark.

[Steve Mawdsley]

Wow what an incredible interview. Debs own story of redemption was so wonderful. Our thoughts and our hearts need be challenged.

I know that took a heap of guts to do.

Well done.

[Transforming]

Neither Paul Nor Apollos - do not confuse the sinner with the sin. Jesus loved all sinners (that includes me and everyone else) but not the sin. He loved me first and then I could change through the Holy Spirit. I think you may feel that accepting gay people in the church somehow justifies their sin. It really doesn't.

Your reference to a 'paedophile brother' and 'murderous brother' is very different to homosexuals as the former are crimes committed against others against their will. While sex in a homosexual relationship is between consenting adults. Quite different.

[DS]

Neither Paul Nor Apollos - you're outnumbered by liberals here, you're wasting your time!

[Lionfish]

Wow! Can't wait to the podcast to enter into the discussion.

Please also exercise some grace towards 'Nether Paul nor Apollos'.

[Lionfish]

Re: "Your reference to a 'paedophile brother' and 'murderous brother' is very different to homosexuals as the former are crimes committed against others against their will. While sex in a homosexual relationship is between consenting adults. Quite different".

The 'Consenting Adults' argument cannot be used to justify homesexual behaviour -

-Many paedophile realtionships are between two consenting people (some times the child grwos into a consenting adult) eg. Eductor/student realtionships ... still does not make it right, or a lesser evil than other sins.

-Acts of cannibalism have occured bewteen two consenting adults (the consumer and the consumed) ... still does not make it right, or a lesser evil than other sins.

-Many other sexual sins occur bewteen 'consenting adults' - even St Paul condemned sexual sin bewteen a man and his fathers wife. (Read 1 Corinthians Ch 5).

Have to be careful about justifying sin, or ranking sin based on the 'conseting adult' argument.

[Transforming]

Hi Lionfish,

You have made some excellent points and it occured to me after making the post that it may be assumed that the murderer and paedophile are beyond redemption which is not correct either. This all seems too hard to talk about sometimes. I suppose bottom line is all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and do not judge else you will be judged. I know I have been guilty of being judgemental - God help me to really change permanently.

[Angina]

Neither Paul nor Apollos,

"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your BROTHER'S eye."

I hope you can see enough brothers and sisters around you (provided you broaden your definition of "brother"). And guess what? They all have specks in their eyes!

[Lionfish]

Transforming, no probs - I once used to regard homosexuality as one of those 'up there' sins.

This was reinforced for me in Romans 1:24-27 where St Paul condemns the 'shamefulness' of homosexuality and lesbianism...

But ...

As Lance (Groupsects) pointed out to me, one of the tragedies of the modern Bible is that of 'Chapter breaks'.

In the orginal manuscripts, St Paul continues directly with Chapter 2, the passage that states that we (who judge) are all under the very same wrath.

"...You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?".

The place I presently am at is that we ALL need to come to a place of 'metanoia' (repentance) and focus on persuing discipleship /holiness.

This applies to the homosexual, yes, also but we married men who may never physically commit heterosexual adultery - but must battle with temptation and lust of the eyes. The struggle with the flesh (as Luther would term it) is a battle for everyone.

Let's never lose sight of sin and its consequences, the need for us all to repent (otherwise we are all stuffed!). :-)

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Pastor Mark:

“In evangelism, acceptance always precedes repentance. Jesus loved and accepted Zaccheus before he changed, as did the father to the prodigal son.”

We accept all humanity whom Christ has died for on the Cross. We approach all men, women and children to persuade them with gentleness and truth to repent and give their lives to Christ. However, we do not and must not accept a man as ‘a brother’ or a woman as ‘sister’ until repentance has come. How do we know repentance has come?

When a man understands he is doomed and on the way to hell without Christ and he seeks God’s forgiveness for his sins and agrees to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, agreeing to let the Holy Spirit renew his mind and his spirit. His entire life and demeanour changes and he becomes a ‘slave to the love of Christ.’ He is marked by humility, courage, a love for righteousness, a hunger for God, eager to pursue holiness, his mind set on things that are good, noble and true. He is true to his word and when he sins, he is utterly mortified and repents before God. He is angry when God’s word and ways are perverted by the enemy, he stands up against injustice, he will rather suffer harm himself than see another believer hurt. This is repentance.

But until such a time, a churchgoer is not a brother. He does not have the same Father. Why? He is not yet ‘born again.’ His spirit is dead, it cannot understand the things of God; his mind is still blind and he cannot see. He may hang around the ‘brothers’ and mimic their mannerisms. He may parrot their speech and throw himself wholeheartedly into their activities. But there comes a point when God tests the spirit and you will see rebellion. This man does not yield to the Holy Spirit and remains entrenched in sin and bondage. He will attempt to camouflage his rebellion by calling it ‘my weakness,’ ‘my Achilles heel,’ and ‘my thorn in the flesh.’

The truth is he is not a son. His conscience is not clean. He does not know the Holy Spirit. When he is alone, he deliberately sins. When he sins, he does not even know it grieves the Holy Spirit, eg. a man imagining himself a ‘homosexual Christian’ entertains lustful thoughts for other brothers in the church. He mollifies himself saying so long as he doesn’t act out, he is right with God. And yet we all know, sex starts in the mind. This man does not understand that when he is born again, God makes him a ‘new creation’ severing and burying the corpse of the ‘old creation.’ This man will use words like ‘born gay’ because he has no idea the perfect and wonderful work Jesus Christ performed on the Cross makes a person ‘born again’ and in ‘born again’ there is no ‘born gay.’

Study Luke 19 again and see if there’s a difference between the actual biblical version and the second version submitted below. See if you understand the significance between the two. Your understanding of evangelism is the latter version.

Actual Luke 19: 1-10:

Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Made up version of Luke 19:
All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "

Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

AND THEN Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

Read again the parable of the Prodigal Son. The father did not throw a feast for the prodigal son while he was out wallowing with the swine, eating pigswill. The father did not celebrate, he did not send his son new robes and sandals, he did nothing. NOTHING UNTIL the prodigal TURNED. In fact, Jesus clearly said while the son was away, this father considered him ‘dead’ and ‘lost.’

Luke 15: 17-24:
"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father.

"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
………………..

“There is a difference between homosexual behaviour and homosexual attraction, just as there is a difference between sex outside of marriage and temptation. The interview made it clear that homosexual behaviour is sinful, according to the Bible. However, attraction in and of itself is not, just as temptation is not sin.”

You’re very wrong. The sin of sexual immorality starts in the mind. Jesus clearly tells us this when he warns us about guarding our eye and adultery. Deb Hirsch isn’t talking about temptation. She is talking about attraction. Long-term attraction. She is attempting to persuade us and homosexuals to accept the fact that some of them will never be healed of this ‘attraction.’ This is utterly a lie of the enemy.

Jesus said he came to set the prisoners free. Deb Hirsch says these homosexual prisoners will remain prisoners of their mind (‘soul’) until the day they die.

While temptation isn’t sin, temptation leads to sin. God clearly states temptation arises because an ‘evil desire’ is in residence in a person’s heart. So when a man is tempted with homosexual thoughts, this temptation does not come from God but from ‘evil desires’ inside him. Now if and when the homosexual man recognizes these desires are evil and acknowledges them before God and agrees to allow God to deal with them, he will be set free. But if he merely dismisses these temptations, downplaying them as ‘can’t-help-it attraction,’ he will die.

See James 1: 13: ‘When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
……………..

“This was an interview, not a Bible study. However, the Bible's teaching on homosexuality was referred to and upheld (e.g. the story of Sodom, the Mosaic Law, and Paul's teachings).”

I believe we are studying a series called Living In Babylon. I believe last Saturday and Sunday, brothers and sisters in Christ came to church to hear God’s word being preached from the pulpit. I believe the topic introduced was ‘Sexuality.’ I believe Deb Hirsch was introduced as a pastor and a long-time social worker in the gay community. I believe the interview was conducted as part of the lesson in Sexuality and Living In Babylon.

The Mosaic Law and ‘Paul’s teachings’ was mentioned in passing. (By the way, isn’t it wrong for us to credit the teachings to Paul? Isn’t it the Holy Spirit who authored those letters to the first-generation Christians just as He authored the rest of the Bible?) I did not hear Deb Hirsch submit her words to the scrutiny of the Bible. I did not hear one Scripture supporting her idea of ‘gay brothers’ and I did not hear one Scripture supporting the idea of a ‘Christian’ who can have homosexual attraction till the day he dies.

This interview was conducted from the Saturday/Sunday pulpit and carries with it the weight of a sermon. It has authority over its hearers. It influences the hearts and minds of everyone who heard it.

W cannot say we have ‘upheld’ the teaching of the Bible on homosexuality until we have actually read out the Scriptures on homosexuality, expounded them, giving lucid illustrations how these words apply to our situation. This is my understanding of ‘upholding’ God’s word.
……………….

“Once a person becomes a follower of Christ, yes, they are a new creation (justification). One day we will be perfect (glorification). In the mean time we are in the process of change (sanctification). During this time we all struggle to 'put off' the old and 'put on' the new. With Christ's help we can overcome sin.

We do not overcome sin with Christ’s help. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. There is a conviction by the Holy Spirit. He is a person. He is with all those who are born-again 24/7. You cannot ignore Him, you cannot resist Him. His presence is palpable. He talks to you all the time. How can a ‘gay brother’ entertain ‘attractions’ for other brothers if in his mind and spirit he is aware the presence of the Holy Spirit? Or has this man absolutely no fear of God? Imagine you have a son, a little 5-year-old, and he tags along wherever you go. Do you dare to flirt with another male/female with your little boy watching you, his eyes and ears wide open?

My only answer is such a man, despite avowing Christianity, is not aware because he is still dead in his sins.
……………

“For those with same-sex attraction, Deb said that the focus should be on Christ and following him (discipleship). During that process, some see a change take place in their orientation (Deb herself has and many others do too). Others may not (this is the reality) and may have to remain as celebate singles.”

Deb Hirsch is adjusting her doctrine to suit her experience. She is not submitting her experience to the scrutiny of doctrine.

If I say to you ‘I am a paedophile but I love God and am a Christian and have been born again since 1989. Since then and despite my conversion, I have always had this attraction to small boys and girls but I choose to be a celibate single and not act on these attractions’ – are you going to buy this?

Will you allow me to go to Sunday school and teach little kids? Will you allow me to be interviewed on your pulpit and talk about my paedophilic attractions? Will you allow me to persuade 3,000 of your church members to agree that I will have these paedophilic thoughts until the day I die and that it is normal? Will you allow me to persuade them that more and more people are having paedophilic attraction and it is genetic. Most importantly, will you make me the ‘paedophile pastor’ and give me money to start a ‘Paedophile Christian Church?’ Will you implore all of us to be more compassionate and merciful to ‘our paedophile brothers?’

If not, then why should we allow a man who confesses he has homosexual inclinations to move amongst our ‘brothers?’ Why should we allow a woman with lesbian attraction to work with ‘sisters’ in the Women’s Ministry? Why do we agree to believe they, being a special class of ‘converts,’ have a right to hold on to terrible sin in their minds until the day they die? Who gave these special-class converts the right to be exempted from the Scripture that adjures us to be renewed in our minds daily and not to conform to the patterns of the world?

If homosexuality is not a serious and grievous sin that Christians must battle in modern-day Babylon, why does Jude 1 say this?

‘Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

‘Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the ‘Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

‘In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.’

‘Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

‘These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.’
……………….

“The goal of this interview was to raise some of the key issues, encourage people to think and pray about them further, encourage going discussion and learning, and to move people away from the extremes of both judgmentalism (the 'God hates fages' variety of people) and sympathy (liberalism) to a more balanced approach - which understands the narrowness of truth and the width of grace.
Hopefully we accomplished this.”

Pastor Mark, that is a good goal. But we must honour Christ and give Him precedence. Even in difficult issues such as sexuality, it is what the Bible says, thus what Holy Spirit says, which must prevail. What is wrong with just opening the Bible and reading aloud those passages that talk about homosexuality? So what if you have no or little experience working with homosexuals? – that does not preclude you from understanding God’s will and purpose in this matter. We do not have to have a ministry among murderers to preach that Christians should not kill and Christians must stop others from committing murder.

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Neither Homer nor the Family Guy:

“No one should be called brother or sister that does not live the "victorious Christian life" - triumphant and fully healed, fully free: no more calling 'brother' or 'sister' with anyone not under that label
- no more people with issues of greed (wiping out so many hyper 'faith' Christian leaders)
- no more people with pride (wiping out so many more church goers)
- no more people struggling with food addictions and gluttony (wiping out most of the western world)
- no more people that are not totally free, healed and triumphant over issues relating to lust (thoughts, etc)
- no coveting, gossiping, slanderous people (wiping out most people involved in any form of Christianity)
- no more sick people that do not experience total healing
Oh Hell, look, there's no one left except me :) How righteous am I!
At least I can recognise everyone else's humanity - thank God they're not my brother or sister. I am so triumphant. Religious homophobia: Priceless”

Have you not heard, friend, Jesus came to set you free from greed, pride, food addiction, gluttony, lust, covetousness, gossiping, slander, sickness and diseases? It is true. That is the good news! He didn’t come to recruit you so that you could hang out in church and play rock guitar for worship. He came to set you free from all those things you listed above.

See Luke 4: 18-19: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour.’

Did you know ‘homophobia’ comes from two words -- ‘homo’ and ‘phobia’? One is derived from ‘homosexual’ (those who practise same sex relations) or homosexuality (the behaviour, lifestyle and politics of those who promote same sex relations) and the other ‘fear.’
Sorry to disappoint but I’m no homophobe. I’ve absolutely no fear of homosexuals. They’re just people. They’re pushing an agenda and I’m just pushing against them. I believe they are wrong when they say Jesus can’t heal them. He can and He will, if they will surrender to Him first.
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I-cannot-think-of-a-good-pseudo-name:

“Neither Paul or Appollos, its funny that you label these people we shouldn't embrace such a an adulturous brother or a greedy brother. Funny you say greedy brother when you apart of a a country where you are in the top 10% of the worlds wealthiest and the 20% of the most wealthy people in the world consume 80% of the worlds resources. That sounds kind of greedy to me.”

You misunderstand me. What I mean is we do not go around labelling people as ‘adulterous brother’ and ‘greedy brother.’ If a man is truly born again, he is just my brother. A woman, my sister. If he was once an adulterer, he has been healed of his adulterous spirit. If he was once a greedy man, he has been healed of his greed. Zacchaeus was a greedy man. The day he repented, he declared openly he was going to give away money to the poor and make restitution to those he had cheated by paying them fourfold. Jesus declared him a ‘son of Abraham.’ Likewise when we become born again, we are all ‘sons and daughters of Abraham.’ There is no such thing as ‘gay brother.’

And yes, I do live in wealthy, greedy Babylon but that does not make me a Babylonian. I’m no more Babylonian than working ten years in Ethiopia is going to make me a Masai or walking into MacDonald’s is going to make me a hamburger.

That’s the whole point of the sermon series Living In Babylon being preached by pastor Mark Conner this month. How to live in Babylon without being contaminated by Babylon is how to live in Australia without being contaminated by Australia.

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Lynn Moresi:

“I think we had better be very careful at CityLife Church or we will get a reputation for accepting and befriending sinners, drunkards and sexual perverts..... Do we really want that label?? Do we really want all the outcasts in society hanging around us?? Do we really want all those people with all those ugly, (and potentially dangerous), problems messing up our nice, supportive, friendly, spiritual home, and maybe even influencing our godly environment??”

Jesus ate with sinners. He visited them and talked with them. He invited them to come and see Him. We love Jesus so we do what He does.

When Jesus has finished his work for the day, he retreated to quiet spots, sanctuaries, where he fellowshipped with his disciples. He taught them things that he did not reveal to others. He told them the true meaning of many parables kept hidden from the crowd. He prayed with this group of friends and constantly asked them to keep him company when he was talking to the Heavenly Father.

When we are done eating and drinking and spending time with the outside world, we too retreat with our brothers to spend time together. We reflect on what God has done, what God has to say, where God wants to take us. We talk about things precious and valuable to us, we confess our sins to one another, we pray with each other and for one another. We keep each other company when we talk to our Heavenly Father. This is our corporate worship and fellowship.

Is this understanding of friendship and fellowship wrong?

By the way, a true friend is one who tells us the truth. He does not flinch. Neither does he package or sugarcoat the bad news to make it more palatable. That’s not evangelism. That’s hucksterism.
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Nicole Conner:

“I pray that CityLife would be identified and criticised by our ability to have the open arms of our Heavenly Father, and not the self-righteous stance of the older brother (who was just as lost as the younger one).”

These are the actual words Jesus used to describe how the father felt about the older brother. Luke 15: 31 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'

The moral of the story is that sinners should be welcomed back into God's family with joy. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it record the father regarding the elder son as ‘lost’ (‘dead.’) We must not add to Scripture what’s not there.

As believers we rejoice when a homosexual repents of his sin and turns to Christ. We rejoice because the Holy Spirit has opened his eyes and set him free. He is no longer a homosexual. He is no longer a slave to his attractions. He is just a brother. For that, we sing with the angels in heaven.
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Transforming:

“Neither Paul Nor Apollos - do not confuse the sinner with the sin. Jesus loved all sinners (that includes me and everyone else) but not the sin. He loved me first and then I could change through the Holy Spirit. I think you may feel that accepting gay people in the church somehow justifies their sin. It really doesn't. Your reference to a 'paedophile brother' and 'murderous brother' is very different to homosexuals as the former are crimes committed against others against their will. While sex in a homosexual relationship is between consenting adults. Quite different.”

I’m not confused. There are many things we can consent to but it doesn’t make it right in God’s eyes. Lionfish mentioned one. Others include taking drugs, murder (waging war on someone who has done us no wrong), cohabiting before marriage, cheating (taking advantage of loopholes in the tax law to avoid taxes), stealing (buying pirated material), abortion, pregnancy out of wedlock (refer to Bible for complete list).

When someone comes to Christ, if he continues to persist in these sins, claiming he cannot help himself, there is evidence to doubt his conversion. We cannot gloss over sin by simply giving the person a nice name like ‘gay brother.’ This is what I meant by ‘murderous brother’ or ‘prostitute sister.’ If the man and woman keep wanting to kill someone or sell his/her body for money despite claiming to be Christian, they are NOT SAVED, no matter how long they inhabit our pews.
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DS:

“You're outnumbered by liberals here, you're wasting your time!”

This isn’t a numbers game. This is our faith and we must contend for it. Just like Daniel in the lion’s den. He was in Babylon and he was outnumbered. God saved him. Do not lose heart. Speak the truth in love.
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Angina:

"’You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your BROTHER'S eye.’
I hope you can see enough brothers and sisters around you (provided you broaden your definition of "brother"). And guess what? They all have specks in their eyes!”

My dictionary says hypocrisy is ‘the act of pretending that one has beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities or standards that they do not actually have.’

Which belief, opinion, virtue, feeling, quality or standard don’t you think I have? Tell me quick so I may repent!

Jokes aside, I do agree with you we all have planks and specks in our eyes. However, when a serious issue such as homosexuality and the stance of the church is being discussed, we need to go to the Scriptures and see what it actually says rather than relying on humanistic ideas and words of men (and women).

And yes, there are enough brothers and sisters around, and this week we shall be sharing supper, discussing this topic and praying the Father’s heart will prevail rather than popular opinion.

[Nicole Conner]

Dear P&A,
There is something very wrong with your presentation - a person becomes a brother and sister in Christ not because of the nice list of qualities you present in the beginning of this essay but because of the atoning work of Christ - a free gift - received by faith. Paul warns the Galatian community to be wary of anyone presenting a Gospel that is different to that - which is false, and really no Gospel at all. From that point of justification begins the journey with God, the journey of discipleship where the Spirit is forever at work changing and transforming us into His likeness. Thank God our community can be brothers and sisters in Christ not because of your list, but because of the Good News that God became Incarnate - so that sinful humanity can have a relationship with Him through the act of 'metanoia' - repentance/turning to Him.
We are all on different parts of our journey with God, we are all on different points of discipleship. Fortunately it is God's Spirit of enabling grace that keeps us on this journey. We are not perfect, we are not flawless, we are not forever triumphant - but we are forgiven because of God's righteous work through Christ. The Kingdom of God has come in Christ, the process of transformation has started, but the fulness of the Kingdom will not be realised until the complete work of redemption - when there will be no mor sickness, or suffering, or sin. Until that time we know in part, and we journey with specks and planks - nevertheless, the grace of God is sufficient, for everyone who trusts in Him, including the ones who face the issues of same sex orientation in their lives.

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Pastor Nicole,

This is my understanding of salvation. If this is not the gospel, then please correct me.

We’re saved through 3 processes: justification (past), sanctification (present) and glorification (future).

1. Justification

Starting point. We receive salvation by faith, acknowledging we’re sinners, understanding we cannot save ourselves, believing God has provided a way for us through Jesus Christ. We acknowledge Jesus Christ is fully God who became fully Man and died for our sins on the Cross. We accept His suffering for our sins and we agree to surrender our lives to Him. We agree to receive Him as Lord and Saviour. We agree without Him, we’re doomed. This ‘metanoia’ is a 180˚ turning away of from our old way of being our own master. We surrender self-determination to Christ-determination. This ‘metanoia’ is our first repentance. Justification depends entirely on the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection 2,000 years ago and we believe the atonement is perfect, complete and for all flesh.

2. Sanctification

Once justified, we begin the journey of being sanctified. We do this in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. He convicts us daily and continuously. We respond. Each time we respond, our minds are renewed, our lives transformed, our brokenness healed. We begin to bear more and more fruits of repentance and fruits of the Holy Spirit. God writes his laws on our hearts and we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Radical obedience is called for in order for this stage to succeed. Our free will is in operation and we choose to obey or disobey. If we resist the Holy Spirit and the authority of the Scripture, we’re not sanctified.

2. Glorification

When we have been sanctified, our conscience becomes clean before God. However, until we have a glorified body when Jesus returns, it is not possible to be sinlessly perfect. While we live in our corruptible bodies, there is unconscious sin. So we wait for the coming of Jesus and our glorification – the final and conclusive part of our salvation – when we shall be completely free from unconscious sin.

My ‘nice list,’ as you put it, is not a list of prerequisites that ‘justifies’ a man. It is the list of evidence the Holy Spirit is at work in him. It is the list that applies in sanctification. This is where I believe most ‘homosexuals’ fail in their attempt to pass themselves off as believers. They are unable to provide evidence of the sanctification work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. While they continue to resist what the Holy Spirit says about the grievousness of homosexuality, they will not be able to accept it as ‘evil desires’ and if they do not accept it as ‘evil desires,’ they will hang on to homosexuality as an ‘orientation,’ ‘attraction’ or fatally, a ‘genetic predisposition.’

Some (many?) homosexuals attempt to abrogate the authority of the Holy Spirit by limiting this sanctification to only behaviour. Hence, the argument that it’s ok and they are genuine Christians so long as they don’t ‘act out’ their ‘homosexual inclinations.’ This is a complete and utter cop-out. Jesus always told us Pharisees are clean on the outside but leave the inside filthy whereas He has come to cleanse us from the inside so we can become clean outside. The homosexuals are trying to force us to accept they can be clean outside and yet remain ‘unclean’ inside right up till the day they die. Is this God’s truth? Is this what the Bible teaches?

It is often very hard to know if a person has genuinely reached the justification stage of salvation because a lot of people say ‘I accept Christ, I accept Christ’ without fully understanding what it is they are accepting and who. But give it some time and you will see if sanctification begins to take place. If sanctification does not take place (yes, see my ‘nice list’), this is a big warning sign to the brethren that this person most probably isn’t saved in the first instance. So we teach, encourage, correct, rebuke and admonish. And we stand back and observe. Still no sign of life? Or perhaps even worse, the man falls into greater sin and is indistinguishable from a non-believer? Sorrowfully, we must accept the fact such a man is not a ‘brother.’ He was either presumptuous in his ‘justification’ or rebellious towards ‘sanctification.’ In either case, he is ‘not saved.’

I can accept a believer being on different stages of the journey but I cannot accept a ‘believer’ who after years of knowing the Lord does not experience healing of a broken conscience. A man with homosexual attractions must surely have one of the most troubled consciences in the world and to claim that this poor fellow must live with this till the day he dies denies the work of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us so that even before glorification, we can have a perfect conscience before God and men.
(1 Timothy and 2 Corinthians teach us the good and clear conscience of a sanctified believer.)

There must be one and one standard for all who come to the faith. Either the Lord heals us from our brokenness or He doesn’t. Either the Holy Spirit sanctifies from sin inside out or He doesn’t. We must not tolerate this awful, awful deception of ‘gay brothers’ who are stuck in their ‘orientation till the day they die.’

What the church tolerates today, our children will practice tomorrow.

[Nicole Conner]

Interesting.
At what point do we declare the sanctification process void because we are not seeing the sort of fruit we'd like? 1 month? 1 year? 5 years? At what point do we become the judge of someone's journey and salvation because they have not ticked all the boxes? When can we say with confidence that the grace of God in their lives is 'presumption' because they are not fast tracking or healing at the rate we would like them to? You play a dangerous game, my friend. It would be far healthier to preach the true Gospel, to live a life of discipleship, to love both the healed and the broken, and be a lot more concerned with your own sins. Throughout your words you seem to be very confident on what homosexuals feel, think, what motivates them, what agendas they are pushing, etc etc I wonder how many people there are in your life that are gay? And whether you have taken the time to really understand their journey? But I agree with you, there must be one standard for all who come to faith - it is the standard of God's righteousness through the work of Christ. And it is a gift of God called grace. And it's still amazing today, and very, very messy, risky and uncomfortable.

[Nicole Conner]

"I can accept a believer being at different stages of the journey but I cannot accept a 'believer' who after years of knowing the Lord does not experience healing of a broken conscience." - Wow! Paul is in trouble then, isn't he? Romans 7. Fortunately for Paul and 99.9% of us broken people acceptance or condemnation is not based on your nay or nod :) Rather the Spirit of God at work in all us - Romans 8.

[Lionfish]

Hi Nicole,

For clarity, St Paul recommended 'excommunicating' a man in the Church at Corinth because of (it seems unrepentent) sexual sin (1 Cor 5).

Do you think the Church should still make these types of decisions to excommunicate members because they are in these types of sexual realtionships?

Do you think that there is a point where the Church should not compromise on the issue of sexual sin to prevent a little yeast affecting the enitre Church?

If so, how does one define the scope of this boundary?

[Nicole Conner]

Hi Lionfish,
Unrepentant sin needs to be addressed. My comments on this post are not about avoiding these issues, or compromising God's word, rather the hypocrisy of putting one sin above the other, and the attitude we have towards people who are struggling for whatever reason.

Hopefully in a healthy community there is accountability and discipleship in place so that we can all grow - we can exhort and encourage one another. If someone continues on a pathway of sin because of rebellion there needs to be consequences - absolutely. But I have found these cases to be rare, most often people are struggling in their walk, aware of their sin and shortcomings. Those who are 'rebellious' rarely need to be excommunicated as they would have left a long time ago :)The truth of God's word needs to be upheld - with an attitude of love and grace.

[Lil_MissInformed]

I have bouncing around to different churches and I was lucky enough to bounce on into citylife on Saturday. I was all ears, leaning forward listening to every word spoken, completely unaware at the time of the discomfort of some of the people surrounding me.

It was heart warming to know there is a church out there willing to say welcome, come on in to ALL out in the wider community.

[new creation]

This is a very interesting and important debate. I have particular interest for a number of reasons. 1. My mother's first husband committed suicide due to his homosexual tendencies, 2. I struggled with such feelings when I was a teenager for a period of time (and this is not something I have revealed to others in the past) 3. I oversee at work someone who is a lesbian attempting to get pregnant and who is not always treated well by her colleagues, I am supportive of her- she has a very difficult road to walk.

All in all, I am wary of those wielding the 'sword of the word' to wildly in this debate as it is an issue that has serious consequences for people. I have been recently reading about the pious settlers of New England- there form of religion was particularly vicious and unchristian when it came to those who did not follow their ways. If church is not a safe place for people to deal with the deep issues of their sexuality (gay or straight) then many will live a tortured double life. Sometimes the most vocal being those who struggle the deepest in secrecy.

I think we would all agree that the goal is for all of us (gay or straight) to consider others as brothers and sister, or mothers and fathers (as per Timothy i think) rather than an object of sexual desire. However not all of us are there all the time. I would dare say that most unmarried youth would struggle to reach this ideal on a daily basis.

Due to my mention of other people in this post I will not use my name in this instance.

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Pastor Nicole:

Six of my closest friends are gay. They have been for the past two decades. Four weren’t as teenagers but become so as a result of befriending mature homosexuals while socialising, initiated into homosexual sex at drug parties. Two of my friends are gay as a result of abuse by their fathers; one becoming militantly so after spending a term in Europe studying at an art college, initiated into homosexual sex and politics by the art lecturer. One of my cousins is gay, initiated into the lifestyle at college by a senior who was her ‘god-sister.’ This cousin is also a victim of an abusive father, my uncle. All seven are atheists. All have multiple numerous sex partners and sometimes swap homosexual affairs for heterosexual ones. All claim they are born gay. All have heard the Gospel spoken in a gracious manner. None have been abused as queers and fags in our household. All spend a lot of time with me, both at work and at leisure. All have been ostracised and disowned by their own immediate families, none of whom are Christian.

Do I have to go on? Why should you wonder anyway about how many people are gay in a Christian’s life? Is our understanding of the Bible any sounder because you know more gay people than I do and vice versa? Shall we gag the mouths of believers who cannot claim to know anyone gay? Are you going to ask me next how many paedophiles are in my books so that I’m qualified to discuss what the Bible says about the sin of paedophilia? How about murderers, prostitutes, junkies, rapists? Do I need to give you a headcount before I’m qualified to open the Bible and see what God says about such things?

Why do you accuse me of playing a dangerous game? Do we wait for another story of priests molesting boys and raping girls before we will stand up and declare such men do not know God and are unsaved? Must we wait for another horror story of Christian leaders sleeping with other men and leaders stealing another person’s wife to be galvanized into action? Must we wait for secular journalists to write another expose on Christian leaders with pornography and leaders visiting prostitutes before we draw the line? Are you sure I’m the dangerous one and not those who are tolerating sin and immorality in the name of Grace?

At what point do we declare the process of sanctification void?
Where do I start?

Ok, a nutshell answer: The Bible urges us to examine ourselves and see if we are in the Lord. The Bible commands us to test the spirits because many false spirits are in the world today and have crept into the church. The Bible warns us about false shepherds. The Bible warns about those who ‘blemish the love feasts’, meaning those who participate in our holy communion without ever being repentant.

The Bible gives us a very clear example in 1 Corinthians 5 where Christians thought they were being compassionate and merciful when God sees their refusal to take action as tolerating sin and immorality. 1 Corinthians 5 tells us very clearly what Christians must do once we observe sin and immorality being practised by someone purporting to be a brother.

I Cor 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

In 1 Timothy 1, we read an example of Paul judging the sanctification of two men in the early church. He excommunicated both.

1 Tim 18: 20 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

The point of action is simple and practical. If last Sunday a man comes to the altar and says he is saved, but this week I catch him fondling a boy in church, we must immediately pull this man aside and separate him from the flock. Immediate quarantine! The church must discipline him. If he responds to discipline and agrees to be monitored by brothers and sisters concerning his behaviour towards children, then after some time (use common sense, how long must we watch a man with paedophiliac tendencies?) , we will be satisfied in our minds he is responding to the work of sanctification. If he refuses and argues for human rights, sorry mate, there’s the door. The same goes for a homosexual who is caught making overtures to a brother in church. Brothers (and sisters) must be taught to recognize godly behaviour and ungodly behaviour.

God’s grace is not messy, risky and uncomfortable. We ourselves, by ignorance or sheer unwillingness to submit God’s word on discipleship and discipline, make things messy, risky and sometimes downright dangerous, for ourselves and for the outside world. The truth is God gives us practical wisdom to handle complicated situations.

When Deb Hirsch mentioned sexuality and sensuality, claiming it was all right for homosexuals to recognize sensuality without being overtly sexual – at least I think that’s what she said because she wasn’t speaking clearly and appeared to mumble through parts of the interview – this Scripture came to mind:

James 3: 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

Note how ‘sensual’ is used. Three more times ‘sensual’ appears in the Bible, each time with negative connotations.

Ephesians 4:19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

Colossians 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

1 Timothy 5:11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.

The goal of Christians is not to make church comfortable for the sinner. It is to glorify God. Otherwise, we'll end up being another seeker-sensitive mess, mocked for stooping to all kinds of silly ways to entertain and entice non-believers to come near enough so we can sneak the gospel into their lives.

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Pastor Nicole:

"I can accept a believer being at different stages of the journey but I cannot accept a 'believer' who after years of knowing the Lord does not experience healing of a broken conscience." - Wow! Paul is in trouble then, isn't he? Romans 7. Fortunately for Paul and 99.9% of us broken people acceptance or condemnation is not based on your nay or nod :) Rather the Spirit of God at work in all us - Romans 8.”

Why should Paul be in trouble? In Romans 8, Paul clearly talks about the mind of the believer that is controlled by the Spirit and contrasts it with the mind which is not controlled by the Spirit.

Romans 8:5-9
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

How can the homosexual who has a long-term attraction to other men claim his mind is set on what the Spirit desires? Isn’t his mind set on what ‘nature desires’ – his own, fallen nature, exactly as described in this passage?

The Spirit of God at work sets us free from sin. Where the Spirit is, there is liberty. To claim the Spirit is at work and then to say homosexuals must accept long-term imprisonment of their minds is contradictory.

It is shocking and unfortunate Joni Eareckson Tada was mentioned and used as an example of God not healing brokenness in a believer. Homosexuality is condemned as a sin that leads to punishment in hell in many places in the Bible (eg. Romans 2 and Jude 1.) Paraplegia isn’t.

[peter j]

When does sin begin and end? That is a good question. Some are arguing that to have a homosexual feelings/desire is temptation not therefore sin. Others are saying that the very desires are sinful. The same could be said for the opposite sex too, or whether we want to do anything that is wrong and then decide no. The bottom line is that we all have a sinful nature that at times desires things that it shouldn't, and we all have to deal with it (mostly alone) because it is something that occurs on the inside and other christians cant be trusted to help us out.

The question is how do we deal with this in the church. Do we single out and treat homosexuals like they are a particularly malignant disease that potentially infects the church? Do we inadvertently blame them for propagating their lifestyle via 'initiating' others into the lifestyle. Are we so weak and (afraid of our own homosexual tendencies) that we must purge ourselves of anyone that looks at us a bit queer in case we too become 'one of them'.

The references to pedophiles is offensive and off topic- lets drop it because it is deeply offensive to homosexuals to confuse or align the two issues. Besides that considering the widely accepted age of marriage in ancient times (12-13 yo) and the differences in age between older husband and young wife (probably even of Mary and Joseph) going down this path perhaps raises a whole lot more thorny issues than we really want to tackle like - was Joseph a dirty old man?

[anonymous]

Thanks Nicole & Mark,
I missed the service on Saturday night, It was very brave of you guys to address this. It also great that you have, one of those issues we don't like to deal with.

Nicole is right, life is messy, difficult, hard, you are all debating about this which is great but I think it is becoming an intellectual exercise for you all, I am going to speak from the heart, this has been my struggle and I feel compelled to talk about it

As a young teenager I felt 'different' and I despised it, I was teased and bullied at school and felt totally isolated, I often thought about taking my life, I was happiest when I was asleep because reality was horrible. I hated myself.

I had read parts of the bible and 'knew' in my heart that Homosexuality was a sin and would eternally separate me from God. I also got involved in the Occult, I wanted to wreak vengeance on my tormentors which brought me more problems. I hadn't met Jesus but I knew Satan was real.

By Gods grace I never succumbed fully to the Homosexual temptations I faced but I was seriously in bondage in my mind. We can measure ourselves against 'the law' and think we are OK but Jesus in fact 'raised' the bench mark (ie lust in our hearts = adultery...) THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! THIS IS THE STANDARD!

Thankfully God graciously brought some Christians into my life and I was born again in my early twenties. They did not hold back the truth from me, they genuinely loved me but they didn't hold back from telling it as the BIBLE tells it. (YOU DON"T HELP GAY PEOPLE BY COMPROMISING... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I BEG DON"T COMPROMISE!!!!!)

I was baptised and filled with the holy spirit.

My walk since then has been.. well 'interesting.' When I was younger I had pastoral support and received much prayer, and had people walking along side me and made much progress.
I think one scripture my pastor shared with me that really helped was

1 COR 10:13 There hath no temptation that taken you but that is COMMON to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able.. Realising that other people also had to deal with this was HUGE! I was not the only one.. (Either we believe God at his word or we don't simple... don't make it too complicated!!!)

I don't know what would have happened if I was not saved, I don't think I would be alive today..

I am now married and enjoy intimacy with my wife.. God is gracious... but my life is not perfect (I must be real..and honest..)

Do I suffer temptation (and thats how I see it) from time to time, I would lie if I said no, If I am really down, then I am vulnerable. I have on occasion come close to seriously falling...(The enemy of our soul despises us..he does want to destroy all that is good in our lives) I do acknowledge this as an attack of the enemy...(I know this is not really fashionable talk in Christan circles these days but it is my reality)...

The 'spiritual/demonic dimension of this issue is major ( this is one aspect of all the discussion that is totally lacking... IT IS CENTRAL!!!) It has been a key to any 'victory' I have experienced..

Getting as much BIBLICAL understanding of this whole issue has also been helpful, COUNSELLING ... LOTS OF COUNSELLING, ...
Parental relationships are hugely determinant in this, my father was an alchoholic and my mother was cold, manipulative and controlling. I have forgiven them but this is hard and takes along time to work through (decades!)

I have 'owned' this as all my stuff, accepted it, and determined to move forward.. acknowledging God's absoultes and the SUPRREMACY OF HIS WORD ahs also been critical..

You know, I do love the Lord, and I want to walk holy and purely before him. I want to know HIM, and the POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION...

Ultimately though it is the decisions I have made in my heart, the FREE CHOICES I have made.. And my FAITH in Jesus, the POWER of HIS BLOOD, and HIS DELIVERANCE,

As a postscript I really hope you can get the right 'balance'... I attend your Church but have only ever shared this with a handful of people.
.
I do not trust many people with this, most Christians I know have no idea of how to deal compassionately with people fighting this fight.

Many would snigger, gossip, malign. I have suffered enough with this to suffer again..

hoping this helps the conversation...

anonymous

(ps - please don't contact me)

[peter j]

Excommunication in a day and age where it is so difficult to truly be a part of the community of the church (and church people are seen as weird by most of the populace) is comical... even farcical. To the truly unrepentant that don't give a rats Its like OH MY GOD IVE BEEN EXCOMMUNICATED>>> HAVE TO SLIT MY WRISTS LOL.... MY LIFE NOW HAS NO MEANING BECAUSE SOME CHURCHY HAS BOOTED ME. REALLY.. yawn ... like who cares. I'll go to the church down the road, I'll lie and pretend I've given it all up - who'd know cause we don't all live in a tiny village anymore.

Why would unbelievers (with all manner of different lifestyles) bother to come to church and hang out with us weirdoes at all if they didn't believe, or want to believe. As Nicole said, most people struggle with sin and to them excommunication could be devastating. As such it works effectively (devastatingly so) in groups like the exclusive brethren where your whole life is controlled by the sect: you are employed by them or in joint ownership of your business, must attend meetings everyday, must marry a sect member, must follow the edicts of the supreme leader, must follow someone elses interpretation of the bible, and will lose everything house, wife, kids and all if you are excommunicated.

[Zion]

Let God deal with their sins and soften their heart and mind. We can only do our bit to outreach to them. Ultimately they have make that decision. As the truth will ultimately set them free.

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:32

Here a good testimony of transformation:

Venus Magazine
It use to be a gay and lesbian magazine.

The founder of this magazine Charlene E. Cothran, was transformed. She used have gay lifestyle. Please read her testimony.
http://www.venusmagazine.org/cover_story.html

She now ministers to gay and lesbians.

The fact is we all became believers through people (family, love ones, friends etc) who had compassion for our salvation. The church is about people. If we can't welcome the sinner, who will?

Charlene E. Cothran writes:
"We know that the church has largely failed gays and lesbians by not being a welcoming place for those who have sought spiritual change. The invitation to ‘come as you are’ seems to be extended to everyone but us. However God has people everywhere who are open, real and willing to walk out with you. Ask the Lord to lead you to a loving, caring, bible-believing fellowship where you can be nurtured, be blessed, grow AND be a blessing. [Hebrews 10:25]"

Its His word (Bible) and His spirit that can transform. And through our prayers and encouragement.

CityLife is brave enough to have this discussion.

[Lionfish]

Thanks Nicole.

[FaceLift]

One of the problems we have with reconciling contemporary sexuality with scripture is the way things have developed in post-modern times, where it has become the 'norm' to be very 'free' with sexual relations. We should look at sexuality from the perspective of creation. Never mind what men's desires are. What were God's intentions?

God didn't make us with contraceptive and protective devices included!

Sela!

Sex for pleasure was, and is, deemed acceptable, but in marriage. Sexual intercourse was designed for a husband and his wife. Rules and standards God has clearly given us about sexual practices are absolutely fashioned with procreation in mind.

That is not to say that we can't make choices about how many children we should have, or that sexual intercourse between a husband and wife are solely for procreation, but it does say a lot about God's intentions for our sexual 'orientation', as it is fashionably called. God clearly only had one 'orientation' in mind. Saying otherwise is bending truth.

If so called 'gay' sex is a true reflection of Christian values, why is it so important that it be made 'safe' by the use of external means, of using protective devises? If sex with multiple partners is a Christian value, why should couples have to ensure they don't catch or spread the prospective accompanying sexually transmitted diseases by wearing condoms? Why is there such a huge emphasis on 'safe sex' measures if these are now contemporary, acceptable Christian virtues?

God has made marriage a key covenant. Ideally, blood is shed in that covenant. The couple are supposed to be virgins. Fathers are supposed to present their virgin daughters to their husband. Their covenant is until one of them dies. No other partner is supposed to be involved in the marriage bed, which is undefiled. If a husband or wife goes to be with the Lord, then, should they choose, the surviving spouse can remarry, but, again, as a matter of covenant, with one partner of the opposite sex. What is hard to understand about this?

Why should it always have to be about physical, emotional or even sexual attraction? It is about agapé love, relationship and covenant. Everything else is bonus.

I think this debate is being bewitched by modern liberalism and politically (in)correct post-modern gymnastics.

Look at what God originally provided for us, not at what we can do with technological advances. Then it is easy to determine what is right or wrong. When God said "It is not good for a man to be alone", he made a woman, who immediately became a wife! God did not make another man! Have you ever wondered why?

Not hard to work out!

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

anonymous:

Thanks for the testimony. Continue to fight the good fight of the faith. Interceding for you. Rejoicing with you at the same time.

[Nicole Conner]

An interesting read on the attitude of the church towards hurting people is the book "Repenting of Religion" by Gregory Boyd. He certainly says it better than I ever could:

"Perhaps the greatest indictment on evangelical churches today is that they are not generally known as refuge houses for sinners - places where hurting, wounded, sinful people can run ...To be sure, evangelical churches are ususally refugee houses for CERTAIN kinds of sinners - the loveless, the self-righteous, those apathetic toward the poor and unconcerned with issues of justice and race, the greedy, the gluttonous, and so on. People guilty of these sins usually feel little discomfort among us. But evangelical churches are not usually safe places for other kinds of sinners - those whose sins, ironically, tend to be much less frequently mentioned in the Bible than the religiously sanctioned sins.

I submit that, despite being carreid out with utmost sincerity, the desire to acquire a distincetive 'holy' reputation is inevitably hypocritical. ...the sins we declare ourselves to be against are invariably selected to not target ourselves. If we were consistent in cracking down equally on all sins, we'd be cracking down on ourselves more than those outside the church. And if we retained a system of evaluating sin at all, sins such as impatience, unkindness, rudeness, and self-righteousness - all indications of absent love (1 Cor. 13:4-5) - as well as prevalent 'church' sins such as gossip, greed and apathy would rank higher on our list than sins such as homosexual or heterosexual promiscuity."

Selah

[Marija Thornton]

Neither Paul Nor Apollos: I agree with you. Prayer sure changes things.

Anonymous: How right you are: "No compromising the Word of God." Thank you for sharing your heart. It must be tough for you, but you are in the right place and on the right track. Keep holding that word in your heart..."God IS faithful" Never loose sight off who you are in Christ... stand strong in Jesus & be courageous to move forward. It's more important of what God thinks of you rather than what others think of you. People's opinions of you are subject to change, but God's opinion lasts for ETERNITY. Praying for you.

Facelift, how right you are: "It is about agapé love, relationship and covenant." God's Agapé Love brings sinners to repentance, not judgement nor the Rod. The rod of correction is reserved for His 'saints', sheep who go off track :) "For God disciplines those He loves". The Holy Spirit convicts sinners of their sin and it's up to their conscience what they do about it...(what's the old catch phase: "We catch them and He cleans them" :) On the other hand if we see a brother/sister going the wrong way, we need to graciously help restore them with a spirit of gentleness in love. 'Christians' are called to love others even as God graciously loves us. The truth is that none of us have arrived yet at being like Jesus for we all fall short of the glory of God. We all need to repent daily. His Truth always needs to be spoken in Love seasoned with Grace and Mercy to reach out to the broken and hurting. We need to take our cue from Jesus to do as He did unto others. Enjoy your day.

[peter j]

Hi facelift. I don't think that anyone here is arguing against God's intention for us to live in life-long monogamy with a member of the opposite sex, as you say, this seems obviously be the Lords intention. However a long list of polygamous Kings (including King David might beg to differ that this is obvious). It is also pretty clear that homosexuality, along with a long list of other sins, are all sins against God, others or ourselves. It is also true that none of us meet the requirements of the law all the time, and never will.... not that this justifies flagrantly disregarding them.

Most sexual sin is performed in private yet exposed in public. Although some express dismay and anger when 'christian leaders' fall in this way I for one are more concerned that we have built a hierarchical christian model where some are esteemed as 'more equal than others'. Not that I have a problem with leadership... just that in many instances we have created a pedestal that is so high, peril the thought of someone misbalancing on it for a second.

The problem is how do we deal with people that don't meet this ideal all the time. Do we treat people who might struggle with God's law poorly? Do we treat people better if they are unsaved, and castigate those who are saved and 'should know better'? How do we manage 'unchristian' behavour in general? What about behaviour that many see as christianised (e.g. the public 'prophetic' outbursts of certain pastors who consider themselves prophets) that others would say is clearly wrong?

Now these questions are more difficult. It is far easier to say - 'we'll deal with you because you are a homo' to a rank and file church-goer, than 'we'll deal with you because you are a prideful, self-absorbed, controlling, pastor'.

A good rule of thumb could be... to act toward people in a way that is most likely to bring about their long term reformation.

Even this is fraught with difficulty- although we all intend the same outcome we may all have different methods we hold dear to. One says 'stone them' it's in the Bible, another 'love them' thats in the Bible too. Another says 'preach law and fire and brimstone' another 'preach love and forgiveness'. Far too often CHRISTIANS think the Lord is leading them to do things when really it is only their own passion about pet subjects based on favourite scriptures they believe they have a personal revelation about.

Opposed to this is what I Paul was on about when he said - "be all things to all men". It is not about us compromising our values and our pet ways of dealing with things we think are unbiblical or wrong, it is about adapting our approach to the people we are working with (our generation) in the hope that they might find the Saviour, being mindful that we too are only a step away from sin. Now that is a lot harder than the 'trumpeting our way of life- take it or leave it approach'.

To coin a phrase - Personalised Christianity, rather than a 'cookie cutter religion'. Lets face it, every culture and generation although mostly holding similar core beliefs has adapted and responded differently to the revealed Word. How are we going to respond to our generation to establish some relevance and credibility?

[wazza2]

Facelift said : "Their covenant is until one of them dies". Why is it that the issue of Divorce is so much easier for the Church to deal with than that of Homosexuality?

In the Bible Jesus appears to specifically prohibit divorce and remarriage saying that it is adultery. Yet even though the divorce rate is about 30% and many of those people choose to remarry, the church is largely silent on the issue. The AOG has recently changed its policy to allow remarriage in its churches. There are no ex-divorcee programs, very few people decry the divorcee "lifestyle". Few churches would ban re-married parisioners etc. etc. We have come to terms with the fact of divorce and have made an interpretation of the Bible which is compatible with that.

The issue of Homosexuality is analogous to divorce, and there is less direct teaching against homosexuality in the NT than there is about divorce. Yet Christians treat it completely differently making it completely black-and-white with no interpretation entered into.

Either they feel that they will never be homosexual (but may be divorced), or they are somehow scared that if they were to allow homosexuality they would be tempted.

It seems to be pretty well established that some people have a homosexual orientation that will not change. The ex-gay programs have been failures with many of their leaders apologising for deceiving their followers as well as themselves. I cannot believe that God expects these people to go through life never experiencing intimacy, or to attempt a passionless marriage.

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Friends, brothers, sisters:

Here’s something interesting I read, author unknown:

“Sometimes, despite your best efforts, arguments won't go your way. You've tried all the tricks that you know but your opponent is just too agile to be taken down. Defeat looms on the horizon. At times like these, there's only one thing for it: throwing out a red herring. A red herring is a side-issue, a rabbit trail, a distraction.

“The key to the red herring is not to make it too obvious. You don't want it to seem as though you're conceding defeat by abandoning the first topic. You must therefore insist that the side-issue that you're raising is fundamental, and that it won't be possible to get anywhere with the main debate until you've cleared it up. If your opponent denies this, and tries to drag you back to the matter at hand, then accuse them of being evasive.”

Our topic is Homosexuality. Our debate: Is there such a thing as a Gay Brother, a Christian who remains entrenched in same-sex orientation till the day he dies?

We should not allow authors such as Gregory Boyd to distract us with red herrings and lead us into endless arguments over which sins are more prevalent in the church – greed, apathy, gossip, etc. those are topics for another day.

This subject of ‘gay brothers’ is important because homosexuals are marching down our streets demanding rights and privileges. They are taking control of schools, governments, courts of laws, our health system, science departments and religious institutions. Their ideas of ‘genetics’ and ‘orientation’ are seeping even into evangelical circles. Many of our kids have been conned into accepting the born-gay theory.

If we cannot answer this question through our debate with one another, if we cannot discover God’s will through our discussions over Scripture, if we’re unable to reach a consensus whereby we can unite and reach out to the homosexual community in boldness and oneness of mind, if we're too lazy and too apathetic to finish the investigation and bring it to a satisfactory conclusion, then we’re in danger of being overwhelmed and overrun when the battle resumes.

There is another article worth reading in view of the ‘gay brother’ debate: Ryan Sorba’s thesis called ‘The Gene Hoax.’ When he attempted to present this thesis at his university last year, militant lesbians and homosexuals disrupted the reading with a raucous demonstration. This thesis is now in the process of being written as a book. Ryan Sorba is an Episcopalian Christian. The thesis is available on the Internet.

[Chris]

NPNA:
You imply that a red-herring has been thrown out to side-track the discussion. Well in reading the original post by Mark, he makes no reference to 'gay brothers'. Eight other topics, but not that one. That topic was started by you - as a red-herring perhaps to hijack the discussion away from the issues that Mark raised? :)

So, on that topic, you said Deb Hirsch called for the congregation to accept 'our gay brothers'. Notice that she didn't say 'our gay brothers in Christ'. You added the 'in-Christ' to her words, which seriously changes the meaning of her statement. If you leave her words as they stand, then there's really nothing to argue with what she said, as we all share a common ancestry.

If you really want to get back on topic, pick one of the eight that Mark raised and discuss that.

[Mark Conner]

A free copy of the audio of the interview is now available via the CityLife Church podcast (www.citylifechurch.com/podcast)or iTunes.

[Nicole Conner]

Dear PSt&A,
The light has gone on as the tone of your writing changed, the interesting application of scripture, the severe muddling of homosexuality and paedophilia, the stereotyping of homosexuals, and the slant on what people have said that is just always slightly off orbit - but I am chuckling. No, I have no desire to debate your point further as it does not stand true to the heart of the interview - and people can find that out now by listening to it themselves :)
Have a great day.

[peter j]

Wazza- even divorce is not a cut and dried issue. In a society that could stone and kill people for many sins- a husband or wife would then be free to marry after the timely despatch of an evil partner. Today that is not the case in Australia, a partner can commit all manner of illegal, cruel and indecent things- and according to some in the church, the innocent partner must be bound to them till death do us part.

This is the problem we often face- overly simplistic, legalistic out of context interpretation of the Lord's Word. If I wanted that I would go to the Watchtower... let them do the thinking for me. If the Bible is Gods Word, has a variety of genre's and was written in context at a particular time in history in a particular cultural context- then it should be treated with the respect it deserves. Sometimes I think that the issue of divorce is one of the many topics where a few bible versus- written hundreds or thousands of years apart- are conveniently ripped out and joined together to make a church doctrine. As with our main topic - we are pretty cpnfident of what the Lords intention for humanity is... just how to deal with things when they go pear shaped we are not.

[Nicole Conner]

another great 'red herring'
go to www.youtube.com.au

in search type in:

Tony Campolo's story of a gay son

[Nicole Conner]

another red herring -
Rowland Croucher's blog has many articles/discussions on this subject:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Subject: Relationship between Paedophilia and Male Homosexuality

Excerpt from thesis ‘Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse’ by Dr Timothy J. Dailey, senior fellow for culture studies at the Family Research Council:

VICTIM'S TURNED VICTIMIZERS: THE CONSEQUENCES OF HOMOSEXUAL CHILD ABUSE

The steadfast denial of the disturbing ties with pedophilia within the homosexual movement is no purely academic matter. Perhaps the most tragic aspect of the homosexual-pedophile connection is the fact that men who sexually molest boys all too often lead their victims into homosexuality and pedophilia. The evidence indicates that a high percentage of homosexuals and paedophiles were themselves sexually abused as children:

The Archives of Sexual Behaviour reports: "One of the most salient findings of this study is that 46 percent of homosexual men and 22 percent of homosexual women reported having been molested by a person of the same gender. This contrasts to only 7 percent of heterosexual men and 1 percent of heterosexual women reporting having been molested by a person of the same gender." 70

A study of 279 homosexual/bisexual men with AIDS and control patients discussed in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported: "More than half of both case and control patients reported a sexual act with a male by age 16 years, approximately 20 percent by age 10 years." 71

Noted child sex abuse expert David Finkelhor found that "boys victimized by older men were over four times more likely to be currently engaged in homosexual activity than were non-victims. The finding applied to nearly half the boys who had had such an experience. Further, the adolescents themselves often linked their homosexuality to their sexual victimization experiences." 72

A study in the International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology found: "In the case of childhood sexual experiences prior to the age of fourteen, 40 percent (of the paedophile sample) reported that they had engaged 'very often' in sexual activity with an adult, with 28 percent stating that this type of activity had occurred 'sometimes'." 73

A National Institute of Justice report states that "the odds that a childhood sexual abuse victim will be arrested as an adult for any sex crime is 4.7 times higher than for people...who experienced no victimization as children." 74

A Child Abuse and Neglect study found that 59 percent of male child sex offenders had been "victim of contact sexual abuse as a child." 75

The Journal of Child Psychiatry noted that "there is a tendency among boy victims to recapitulate their own victimization, only this time with themselves in the role of perpetrator and someone else the victim." 76

The circle of abuse is the tragic legacy of the attempts by homosexuals to legitimize having sex with boys. For too many boys it is already too late to protect them from those who took advantage of their need for love and attention. All too many later perpetrate the abuse by themselves engaging in the sexual abuse of boys. Only by exposing the lies, insincere denials, and deceptions--including those wrapped in scholastic garb--of those who prey sexually on children, can we hope to build a wall of protection around the helpless children among us.

Sample of bibliography from the Dailey thesis:

Dawn Fisher, "Adult Sex Offenders: Who are They? Why and How Do They Do It?" in Tony Morrison, et al., eds., Sexual Offending Against Children (London: Routledge, 1994), p. 11.

Kee MacFarlane, et al., Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment (New York: The Guilford Press, 1986), p. 9.

John Briere, et al., eds., The APSAC Handbook on Child Maltreatment (Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications, 1996), pp. 52, 53.

Kurt Freund, et al., "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," Journal of Sex Research 26 (February 1989): 198. See also Freund (1992): "In females, pedophilia is either very rare, or virtually nonexistent," p. 34.

Bill Watkins & Arnon Bentovim, "The Sexual Abuse of Male Children and Adolescents: A Review of Current Research," Journal of Child Psychiatry 33 (1992)

W. L. Marshall, et al., "Sexual Offenders against Male Children: Sexual Preferences," p. 383.

W. L. Marshall, et al., "Early Onset and Deviant Sexuality in Child Molesters," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 6 (1991): 323-336.

W. D. Erickson, "Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters," Archives of Sexual Behavior 17 (1988): 83.

John F. Harvey, O.S.F.S., The Homosexual Person: New Thinking in Pastoral Care (San Francisco: Ignatius Press: 1987): 219
Daniel Tsang, editor, The Age Taboo: Gay Male Sexuality, Power, and Consent (Boston: Alyson Publications ; London : Gay Men's Press, 1981), p.144.

Helmut Graupner, "Love Versus Abuse: Crossgenerational Sexual Relations of Minors: A Gay Rights Issue?" Journal of Homosexuality 37 (1999): 23, 26.

Paula Martinac, "Mixed Messages on Pedophilia Need to be Clarified, Unified," Washington Blade (March 15, 2002).

Gary A. Sawle, Jon Kear-Colwell, "Adult Attachment Style and Pedophilia: A Developmental Perspective," International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 45 (February 2001): 6.

Cathy Spatz Widom, "Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse -- Later Criminal Consequences," Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse Series: NIJ Research in Brief, (March 1995): 1.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/DaileyHomosexualAbuse.htm

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

Hello Chris:

‘So, on that topic, you said Deb Hirsch called for the congregation to accept 'our gay brothers'. Notice that she didn't say 'our gay brothers in Christ'. You added the 'in-Christ' to her words, which seriously changes the meaning of her statement. If you leave her words as they stand, then there's really nothing to argue with what she said, as we all share a common ancestry.’

I believe you have missed the point in the Deb Hirsch interview. She was talking about 'homosexual Christians’ and she used the term ‘gay brothers’ to refer to them. Hence, the point made concerning an ‘orientation’ that persists till the day the ‘gay brother’ dies. Mark Conner in his reply to posts here concurs with Deb Hirsch's assertion that it is a REALITY that there are 'gay brothers' who do not act out homosexual behaviour but remain homosexually-oriented all the days of their lives.

‘Common ancestry?’

Mark 3: 31-35
Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Don't you agree, Chris?

Anyway, I will stop here. I think there's enough material presented for all of us to think about and pray over.

[Neither Paul Nor Apollos]

From wikipedia:

Ad hominem abusive

Ad hominem abusive usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

Consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

‘tone of your writing changed’ ‘interesting application of scripture’ ‘severe muddling of homosexuality and paedophilia’ ‘stereotyping’ ‘slant’ ‘just always slightly off orbit’ ‘I am chuckling’ …

Pastor Nicole, a servant of the Lord should not mock others like this. I apologize for not realizing you’re unwilling/unprepared to debate the topic of ‘gay brothers with long-term homosexual orientations.' Now that I know, I will not engage in further discussion with you, not at least until you signal you’re ready anyway.
God bless.

[Zion]

I think most us in this forum understand there cannot be mixture. Or oxymoron Christians e.g. Christian Gays. But it appears there focus on 'sin', rather than solutions the church to help these people.

...............................
Back to the Question:

3. Can a person's sexual orientation change and if so, how?
From the beginning God created Adam & Eve and not Adam & Steve :)
Therefore is always God's desire for Man & Woman to be together and have families. Marriage is a gift from God.

I personally believe, if a person is attracted to the same sex, it could be spiritual stronghold in that's person life or past generation's curse, that has not been broken.

The Deliverance Ministry
I have witness healing (from my former church) in deliverance of prayer. In the deliverance ministry, they counsels the person first and spiritual discernment, to identify the root of the problem. Hence the healers must know what to prayer for. (e.g. spirit of rebellion, or past relationship, or idols etc.)

However, change will only happen if the person is willing yield and ask for prayer and change. This ministry is not forced upon (as I heard horror stories from other churches).

People in this ministry, has the gift of healing. This process of healing takes weeks, as its a spiritual battle. We, as a church have something special which other religions or organization do not have. That is: Spiritual gifts from a Living God to do amazing things.

Again, I have witness these gifts (healing) in home churches in China and mission trips to the Philippines. Reinhard Bonnke has delivered so many in his crusades in Africa. I believe God wants to glorify the Church by His spirit. We must have faith to let God to do His miracles to others, rather than accepting the current situation of bondage (e.g. homosexual thoughts or desires, yet I am believer in Christ). All things are possible.

Charlene E. Cothran is a good example of miracle. She was gay and lesbian activist leader. She is now a minister of God, delivering many gays and lesbians out of their sin and lifestyle.

Links to Testimony of Transformation of others
http://www.venusmagazine.org/letters.html
....................

Paul writes:
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
1 Corinthians 12 :1-12

[Lance White]

I have deliberately stayed out of this thread because I'm enjoying sitting up the back of the RJ Hickey Stand with the feet up..watching World War III.

But curiosity has got the better of me ..and I'm going to take a wild but educated stab in the dark.

There is only one person in Australia who would bother to do this much quasi-research to back up their Pharisee mindset on this issue.

Is 'Neither Paul Nor Apollos' really former bus driver Peter Stokes?

[anonymous]

Neither Paul or Apollos,

I think you are closer to the mark than anyone else on this forum, and this one cuts close to the bone for me...

Zion has it close too...

I am really concerned with message City Life is sending out in all this too..

the John Mark ministry website Nicole sent us too for a look includes suggestions we consider 'bless' gay unions and support gay rights to adoption... does she really agree with this?

this is abhorrent and I would suggest coming close to apostasy.. 'in the last days men will call good evil.... and evil good...' enough said

at least this is a sign Jesus must be coming back soon!!!

thanks NPorA for contending...

anonymous..

[Transforming]

I thought the whole point of the discussion was that most Christians did not give a gay person an opportunity to enter into church because Christians all too often will not welcome them if they know their sexual orientation. That is bottom line. I don't think anyone is suggesting we look the other way if abuse takes place from someone whether gay, murder, child abuser etc. Much of the discussion seems focused on singling out people who are gay as if their sin is greater than all others and need to be treated differently.

I have confessed Christ for 15years and have to be vigilant when it comes to porn. as it was a major strong hold in my life. I once asked my Pastor about this and he suggested that once exposed to long term extreme sin it is like having opened a door that is very hard to completely close. I have to be careful what I look at and what I think. Does this mean the Lord has failed me for not completely removing the orientation towards porn material, lust etc? Perhapes like the thorn in Paul's side God has a purpose in not completing healing some areas of our lives.

[FaceLift]

wazza2, Peter,
The discussion is on homosexuality, not divorce or other things which would be considered 'sin', although I wouldn't agree that divorce isn't talked about in churches, or that it is comparable to this subject, unless it is on the grounds of adultery.

Wazza2, you seem to be saying that homosexual physical relationships should be considered acceptable for Christians. I don't see that it can be scripturally backed up. There's no doubt that God hasn't factored it into our physical or emotional makeup. It wasn't in his mind when he created people. You claimed that it is an orientation, so are you saying that God had this in mind, or that his only thought for our sexual orientation was ishi and isha, husband and wife?

This has to be the starting point for assessing what is acceptable Christian value as far as sexual relationships go.

I acknowledge the difficulty of relating this to homosexuality, and the need to be open and caring with those who are engaged in same-sex relationships, but I don't think we can move the goal posts to suit the lifestyles of people who are outside of God's will.

[Sage]

I think we all need to sit back and take a deep breath on this one...

It is clear their are many opinions within the Church on this varying between .. 'its OK to be gay'...
to it really is impossible.. for a Christian to be such ie 'in' a gay realtionship or involved in ongoing gay activities and in right standing with God.. ( not withstanding that people do struggle with this orientation despite repentance...) that I believe is quite different too

What I think is essential for individual Churches to do is be CLEAR and UPFRONT with their congregations on the POSITION held by the LEADERSHIP of the local church on these matters.

Such as
1. Does a Church support 'gay' civil rights to marriage or unions
2. Does/would a Church conduct such unions
3. Does a Church welcome 'non repentant' gay people into its congregation with full membership priviledges..
4. How does a Church teach youth on matters of sexuality....

I believe these questions need to be considered..

I would be interested in a response, particulary as I attend city life with a young family (whom I want to be influenced by people who are like minded) and it is now unclear to me and others I have been talking to as to City Life's stance, please, this is very important.

regards

Sage

[Nicole Conner]

Some comments on comments over short posts (find that easier to read).

Rowland Croucher's blog has a myriad of articles on this and other subjects. They are written from a variety of differing views. It is important to hear, understand and consider the various viewpoints and weigh them Scripturally. Obviously there will be articles that I'd agree with and other articles I would not. A bit like going to a Library - some great books, some ordinary, some not worth reading.

[Nicole Conner]

Subtle messages from CityLife - Let's not have these, let's be crystal clear:

1. Like Mark said we do not believe God created a totem pole of sins - all have sinned and fallen short.
2. The Gospel is Good news to every human being and ultimately all of creation
3. Salvation is not dependent on human effort or ticking the boxes on some pharisaical wish list - it is by faith in the Son of God
4. That our journey with God is one of transformation by His power, Spirit and grace. A community will always be 'messy' because people are on all different stages of their journey. We are to be a people of grace and truth, who bear one another's burden, who encourage, exhort and strengthen one another.
5. A place where God's word is upheld with love and truth.

[Nicole Conner]

Regarding apostasy and Jesus coming soon: I think maybe He is waiting for his children to stop propogating a religious institution of fear and paranoia, and to preach the whole Gospel - not a poor, prejudice imitation version. Wouldn't it be great to see the day when the church wakes up from spiritual amnesia and becomes the redemptive, love based, truth guided, healing community that Jesus had in mind when He said He would build his church? When our own insecurities no longer control our need to be judges, but we can be free to be the ambassadors of the blinding Good News that we are called to be.

[Nicole Conner]

And to you, Transforming, take heart, brother. The thoughts of God towards you are more wonderful than words can find. And pray for us. That we would be a community where we see people as precious, made in God's image, where your story can be shared not with whispers because of fear of judgment, but with loud proclamation of God's grace. Where the occupational past time is not running around with tweezers as we remove the splinters from out brothers and sisters eyes, rather that we negotiate the cranes at work
as we zero in on the 30ft blue gum logs sticking out of our own eyes :))))

[Zion]

Well written Nicole.

The positive outcome from Sunday's message for the church (the body of Christ) is to examine herself in outreaching efforts. In general, we believers have failed to know how to outreach to homosexuals or people with sexual problems.

History records: we are generally labelled: Anti-homosexual, gay-hater, homophobic , etc. And we, as a church, have to make an effort to change this. And one of the purpose of this forum is to find solutions to help people with sexual sinned.

I have suggested: 'The Deliverance Ministry' is not because it focuses with people with sexual sinned. But for people with strongholds in their lives and want to change, and is not forced upon. This ministry is design for special cases. And only people with spiritual maturity can serve in this ministry.

Mark & Nicole reminds us:
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

.........
From Ray Comfort's Ministry, he reminds us how sinful we are:

Have you ever lied or a white lie before?

Whoever believe they are not a liar is already lying. Our parents didn't teach us to lie, yet when we were children, we lied for selfish needs (or wants). At times, we lie without us knowing it.

In Revelation 21:8 is judgment for liars.
........

With that, we are not any better than people with sexual sin. Therefore we must have an attitude of meekness and seek God's heart and Spirit to change.

[Mark Conner]

Hi Sage

Thank you for your comments and questions.

Just to affirm CityLife Church's stance on the issue of homosexuality, as was communicated in the interview:

1. We believe and affirm God's standard that homosexual behaviour is a sin before God.

2. We are to treat all people outside the church with love and grace. Jesus was a 'friend of sinners'. We are not to be Pharisees who wait for people to change before be-friending them. We are to love them as they are and believe for God's grace to change them. Gay bashing, homophobia and hatred of gays is not Christ-like and is to be shunned.

3. We believe in the Christian definition of marriage - between a man and a woman. We, along with many others, were active in Parliament recently in helping to protect this definition. We do not support gay marriage. However, we do support the government ensuring that all people receive basic human rights and protection. Politicians are to govern for the 'common good', not just for Christians.

4. Once a person begins following Christ, they begin a process of transformation as they allow the Spirit to make them 'like Christ'. If a follower of Christ is experiencing same-sex attraction, with God's help, they may see this change. If they don't, then we would expect them to live a celibate single life. Christians who engage in sinful behaviour, of whatever type, need to be lovingly confronted and encouraged to change.

5. Yes, we do teach on areas of sexuality from time to time - with our youth, young adults, and adult congregations.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask any more questions if you them.

The purpose of this entire interview was to bring an important issue such as this out into the open. We want to affirm God's standards for our sexuality (the 'narrowness of truth') but also acknowledge the brokenness in all of our lives and create a community where people are safe to talk about the issues that they are dealing with (the 'width of grace'), rather than push them into secret places.

I could not tell you how many people were extremely positive that we had the courage to talk about this issue as a church. There are numbers of people to whom this topic is extremely relevant in their lives right now or within their families.

I also need to affirm what was said at the beginning of the interview. This was not intended to be the 'last word' on this topic. We all 'see in part'. We don't have all the answers. These are complex issues, hence the difference of opinion on them and the subsequent controversy involved. This issue is currently dividing entire church denominations.

The interview was designed to encourage further conversations, prayer, and discussion. Hopefully, this is happening and we can all benefit from that.

Thanks again, Sage.

[Chris]

Hi NPNA,

Within that context, I agree with Mark and Deb.

I think you know what I meant by 'common ancestry'.

[peter j]

Yes there is strong research evidence that there is link between being a victim and becoming and offender when one is sexually abused. Some people end up child molesters others homosexuals and others straight. Crucially one of the factors that most seems to determine how someone 'turn out' is how they as a victim respond to the abuse. Those that blame the offender are more likely to come through OK, those that blame themselves are more likely to become a child sex offender later in life. Considering sexual responses and physical enjoyment occur for some victims during many act of abuse that can occur along with revulsion during such abuse- some do not grow up to be happy, healthy heteros.

However to use the research evidence the other way around... homosexual = high probability of being a paedophile

rather than

Paedophile victim = high probability of becoming a paedophile or homosexual

is unsound. As I mentioned earlier- lets not hasten to equate homosexuality with paedophilia, pederasty etc. Although some consider them related, they are all quite distinct behaviours. Lets not smear everyone with the same brush.

Considering the stats for child sexual abuse stand at about 1 in 4 females and 1 in 6 males having been victims of some form of sexual abuse- is it a wonder that we live in a sexually confused world? Now this is something we should be outraged at. How many suffer in silence and have their precious sexuality interfered with between the ages of 1-18???

Perhaps we should be focussing on preventing child sexual abuse, assisting the abused and dealing with the offenders (both punitively and with treatment) if we are truly concerned about the state of our nations sexual health rather than debating whether someone can technically be a 'gay brother' or not.

PS thanx Mark for making clear the churches position. It was not a surprise to me, yet others seemed to be concerned. Perhaps posting the churches full statement of faith and doctrines somewhere on the blog could be of assistance in this and other matters. Looking at the churches website I couldn't find anything comprehensive.

[Andrew Jones]

I used to believe but not anymore. I formerly attended Richmond AOG and was actively involved with the church, even studying full time to become a Pastor/Preacher at Southern Cross Bible College.

At the hands of the church and its so called "holy" followers I was treated like 'crap'. It was ignorance and misinformation that guided their awful abuse.

I am gay, always have been. Attended 3 separate lots of conversion therapy (of sorts) and it did absolutely no good except drive me head fast into a deep depression where i sought to take my life on several occassions. Thank you church for showing the abounding love of God and nearly killing me.

I wanted to believe there was a loving, caring God but his followers cured me of that notion. Living and thriving as a gay man now I realise I don't need God to live a full and prosperous life. I was never "broken", that is a term used to justify all kinds of monsterous behaviour by Christians upon those who are gay. This term is used by conversion therapy groups like Living Waters, exodus, etc. It is used by those who have been through the course to justify their own orientations within the church. The greatest amount of pain I found was in the church and by its leaders. They casused the terrible brokeness I experienced. no amount of prayer or counseling was appropriate.

The bible and its translation by biblically illiterate christians is the biggest problem.

An interesting point in all this discussion is that barely any church attendee has formed a meaningful and lasting friendship with someone who is gay!!!!!!!

This means that the position from which church leaders and followers speak is without any authority and totally ignorant - they have no direct experience that is authentic and solid. They refer to a book instead created by men and changed over the centuries as being able to justify destroying our lives when we are created in His image. We are not sick, nor needing a cure, we are mankind living our lives, dreaming for a better day, a day of equality. I love my partner and honour him, I work and I aspire to great things.

I am happy and content with my life now. It took some time to unlearn the church lies. I used my own brain and did my homework. I read the scriptures and prayed with an earnest heart and I found the truth. I was already FREE. I was already accepted in God's eyes. I read widely and learned from others. The church is broken and lost NOT me.

There is a terrible lie within the church about our"lifestyle". Well I hate to break up the little church party but it needs to be said, "I live a regular life like anyone else". I don't go about destroying the sanctity of my neighbours marriage, nor do I endorse pedophilia in any form. I believe in living authentically, lovingly, and with passion. I believe in compassion and knowledge, in the great good of humanity, in forgiving, in growing and learning. Life is very short, so short it shouldn't be placed on hold for groups or individuals that seek to oppress and subjugate by means of outdated values and beliefs.

The church is insular, disconnected and definitely irrelevant. I have only to read the above posts to see that nothing has changed for some ignorant fools. They are entitled to an opinion but I for one will stand up and say they are abhorrently wrong, ignorant, misinformed, and biblically illiterate. Sadly the AOG has a reputation for breeding drongos and nurturing a culture of homophobia.

Finally a word to "Neither Paul Nor Appllos" - you aren't clever at all. You are a silly man with silly little ideas. You represent everything bad about christianity. Quite simply you are a hateful fool! Why are people like you allowed to breathe? There is no love and no compassion in your heart. There is no balance in your assertions and drivvle. You are full of pride and hate. I find you to be weak and pathetic. Perhaps when it is all said and done it is you who are the real pervert and are covering up a multitude of sins.

On a good note, I leave you with my heart felt plea to befirend someone who is gay. Enter their lives and share their joys and disappointments. Then and only then will you have the authority to make an informed comment.

[Andrew Jones]

I founed one of the postings intersting ... we don't want to be known as friends of drunkards and sinners!

Jesus was a friend of publicans and sinners wasn't he?

I heard another preacher use the Parable of the Good Homosexual (Good Samaritan) ... gets you thinking doesn't it?

[Andrew Jones]

1. What does the bible say about homosexuality?

Not much to be perfectly frank. Jesus never raised it as an issue during his ministry. The inconclusive instances in addressing homosexuality are in the context of idolatry, pedastry, perdition ... the 6 explosive texts often used to subjugate homosexuals speak not of love for God but individuals who have turned away from God and seek to defile God's image. When I attended church I never considered myself to have turned away from God and yet my sexual attraction was to the same sex.

So what is the church to do when a gay Christian stands up and says i truly love God but I am same-sex attracted. Clearly their hearts are following God and yet they are attracted to someone of the same sex. They have been brought up in a Christian home with heterosexual parents. They are bearing the Fruit of the Spirit but they prefer a companion of the same sex. Has God removed them from His salvation? I think not! They attend church, prayer meetings, and seek the heart of God with all their might, but are gay. To a gay person being gay is no more a choice than it is to select your eye colour or skin complexion. To LOVE someone of the same sex is as natural as it is for some to be attracted of the opposite sex. They don't wake up and decide to be gay they are simply being themselves and be honest. Their motives are authentic, honest and true. They will serve God and honour him but their partner is gay. They are not evil, god-hating, ignorant or defiling God's image they are loving their partner and seeking to fulfill God's will.

Although Mark Connor says its a sin, God does not! To legislate where the bible is silent is extremely dangerous. Even to infer or imply is inadequate and could render one culpable of gross negligence, spiritually speaking.

I wonder if Mark can wear the responsibility of a young gay person entrusted to his care by God committing suicide because their Pastor tells them they are created wrong, a mistake, not loved by God (at least according to Mark's ideas about God's truth and heart). Are you really sure Mark that God is seeking change from a heart and soul that is already focussed on Him even when they are gay? I wonder how many have already died because of the churches crazy doctrine on homosexuality?

You see, no man is above the truth and must be tested by it. If one takes on a leadership position then they have much to answer before God and indeed the people. Having a title of Pastor is not 'cart blanche' to say whatever you like and think you word is final. Even if the organisation upholds an error the individual is compelled before God to chose between men and their God. The problem is getting a clarity on god's position. Mark has much soul searching to do. Presently his position is abhorrently wrong on 'being gay'. He will destroy more lives than he will save.

What I see is a man towing the party line when his own personal position may well be something quite different. So many Pastors are afraid to step out and really bear Christ's Cross.

"By your words you will save them, and by your words you will condemn them".

What continues to amaze me is that the science is all in 'on the topic of being gay' yet the church refuses to accept it. We have more knowledge on the topic than we ever have but Christians remain frightened to embrace reality. This sounds so similar to the Catholic Church when the reformation occurred. First century Christians were simple uneducated people. They didn't know what we know now!

Selah. Think about it.

I think I am the only one in this forum who is gay and not riddled with guilt and shame. There is Lion who is "struggling". But he has nothing to struggle against. Lion you just need to BE who you are in Christ. The Lord is not ashamed of you or your same sex attraction. You are NOT broken, or anything less than the "other sinful heterosexual bunch' that sit in the church pews next to you. You don't have to be passive and accept everything on face value in the church. You can use your intellect and make choices and decisions for yourself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. You are free in Christ to be who God created you to be, sexuality and all. If you love, are authentic, and honour your partner and God you stand right before God. Your love for the same sex is equal in the sight of God. I believe this and I know this. God has not struck me down or made my life miserable. I am free to be myself. As should you.

The great challenge for the church generally is to start befriending gays. Get involved with their lives and be a good mate - STOP talking about God's great love and start doing it.

Too many Christians sit idly by making unintelligent commentary on matters for which they are ill-informed and have no experience or substance. Its time for Waverley Christians to get real and share their lives with those of us who are gay. Gay folk don't need to change - its you who need to change your beliefs and values and bring them alignment with current science and knowledge, and stop being frightened of gays. We wont bite unless you ask us to :-)

[Andrew Jones]

I totally disagree with Deb Hirsch on homosexual orietation and behaviour. One is not sinful but the other is. Bolix!

Listen carefully.

This position is like saying you can be heterosexual but don't you dare behave like one! CAn any heterosexual stop being heterosexual? Perhaps I can take you through a conversion therapy course to reorientate you sexually towards homosexuality. It's absolute madness.

Jesus does not address homosexual orientation in the recorded text.

Absolute rubbish to suggest its solicalisation.

I also strongly disagree with Deb on gays not allowed to have gay partners. To condemn a gay to a life of no intimacy, or sexual love, is bloody irresponsible. You can be gay and Christian so long as you don't behave like a gay and enjoy same sex intimacy.

Deb and Alan rejected the Exodus Program because it was so damn destructive. Ask Deb how many of their former leaders left the program and have now apologised for the suffering they inflicted on so many. Ask her how many now live fulfilled lives with their same sex partners.

My gayness is not a disability in any way shape and form. I can't believe Deb actually said this in the interview. I was bloody outraged.

I do agree with her comments on throwing away the masks that so many hang on to with dear life. I support her plea to create a safe space in the church.

Mark's reading of a quote was extremely moving. There is too much rejection and pain inflicted. I knew 3 young guys who suicided at Richmond AOG in the space of 2 years - each desperately lonely and in deep torment they took their own lives, each connected with their sexuality. Where was the church? It did nothing. It contributed to their deaths!!!!!!!

Re: Gay Rights - we only seek equality. Not special rights. There is a big difference. I want to be treated equally in life.

Deb is right when she says the church have a distorted view of our gay lives. We aren't all politically aggressive and doing drugs. Nor is every Christian like Peter Stokes ... thank god!

"Am I being graceful and I am being accepting"? Good stuff Deb ... well said. That is a great position in which to start.

Moralism vs Holiness - what a great discussion. Peter Stokes is a moralist without being holy. A bus driver with an attitude. I think his first wife left him for another woman and he has been hateful ever since. Peter please explain and correct me if I am wrong. Where has your intense hatred come from?

[Sage]

Ps Mark,

Thanks for your response, I would say we are pretty much on the same page... (thanks also for taking on this topic...you reallly have put yourself in the firing line! yet Jesus is surely at work in all this!)

Sage

[Marija Thornton]

Hi Andrew,
Thank you for unloading your heart. It must be really tough for you. I'm truly sorry that you feel that way about church and your position in life. However, it does you no good slandering and attacking another just because they disagree with your lifestyle. Who are you trying to convince by your lenghty messages? Yourself? I totally agree with Mark Conner's stance and I deffinitely don't hate you, but I certainly don't agree with anyone's homosexual lifestyle. Do you hate women? God intended intimacy to be between man and woman that's why He created them in that order from the beginning. God's Word is the truth and no amount of twisting will change that. My heart goes out to you and I'm praying for you. Never forget that YOU ARE accepted but not for what you do. You are always welcome at City Life. May you find peace... Jesus loves you. Have a great day.

[Mark Conner]

Hi Andrew

Thank you for your comments on the current discussion.

I was saddened to read your story and especially the pain you have felt from Christians and the church.

As was said at the beginning of the discussion and of the interview, this is a complex issue and we don’t have all the answers. We all ‘see in part’.

You said that I am saying that homosexuality is ‘sin’ but that God does not. I’m not sure of the basis for this comment. As a pastor of a church, I do not see myself as the highest authority. God is and so are his instructions, as outlined in the Bible. My reading of the Scriptures indicate that homosexual behaviour is wrong and that it is not God’s intention for humanity - either in creation or in redemption. It is God who says it is ‘sin’, not me.

It’s not up to me to change what God has said but to do my best to uphold what I see as God’s standards for our lives. ‘How’ this is done is important. That’s why we spoke about ‘the narrowness of truth’ and the ‘width of grace’. There is no place for hatred or spite towards gays - or anyone. We are called to ‘speak the truth in love’, even if it is unpopular.

I wish you no harm. There are churches that are ‘welcoming and affirming’ of gays in monogamous relationships. They have interpreted the Scriptures differently than I see.

Hopefully, we can all continue to learn from each other.

Mark

[Lionfish]

"To condemn a gay to a life of no intimacy, or sexual love, is bloody irresponsible. You can be gay and Christian so long as you don't behave like a gay and enjoy same sex intimacy".

There are many people, Christians, including heterosexuals - celibate and married alike - that struggle, as they don't have the (level of) 'initimacy' that they long for.

One of the struggles of any Christian, regardless of orientation is to put aside our own desires, to strive to live for something higher ourslves - that is as Dietrich Boenhoeffer puts it - is 'the cost of discipleship'.

It is difficult burden - and one equally shared or appreciated by all Christians.

[Andrew Jones]

Marija

I am particularly interested in how you attempt to reach out to me after all the information Deb passed on to you. How do you think you went in applying her wisdom?

Thank you for wishing me peace ... I found it when I left the church!
I am at peace with myself and in a loving relationship with my partner who I adore and honour. I treasure him and respect him and I protect him. We have made a commitment to one another to the exclusion of all others and will soon marry.

Firstly, and foremost, I don't require your approval. My fate rests with God and that is more than enough. You know nothing about me other than what I have told you but you certainly have made many assumptions, eg I hate women (where on earth did this one come from).

I have been biblically trained through Southern Cross Bible College years ago sitting under the teaching of Rikk Watts who was trained by Gorden Fee. I have the utmost respect for Rikk, his passion for the word and his love of life. Exegesis was hard work but it was thoroughly enjoyable. My first piece of exegetical work was the passage on the expelled Corinthian brother for sexual sin. It was of particular interest to myself and I found many redeeming nuggets of truth.

I do not require your prayers for change either. I don't need to change. I am whole and complete. God accepts me just as I am - which you may find very difficult to grasp. He didn't make a mistake when I was born. To say he loves me but not what I do is short sighted Marija. That is like saying to a dog that you love for being a dog but you don't like it when it barks. it's very natural for a dog to bark. Selah. There are countless behaviours of your own that God does not agree with so please "check the log in your own eyes" before pointing out mine.

I wonder if you would share your sexuality in this discussion and see how it feels when others shoot you down. I was honest to disclose my sexuality for the purpose of discussion, not moral judgment and self-righteous rejection. I have put my person on the line, what have you given up?

Quite clearly Mark's interpretations have been solidly shaped by years of one narrow view of the texts. This is unfortunate but he seems ready to suggest i would be better suited at another Christian church but not his own. Wow! Talk about another rejection. But hey I expect that from the church leaders, its what they do best when someone doesn't fit their worldview.

Mark I don't know you personally and I wish you no harm. I met you years ago when you were 2IC after your father Kevin. You seem like a nice fella. But you have to understand that your sincere upholding of what you perceive to be God's standards may well be driving gays within your pews to their suicide. Is God killing us or his Shepherds? Can you live with that knowledge? Seriously???? You really need to search the face of God on this. I commend you highly for engaging us but there is much more to be done and lives that can be saved and you have the chance to do exactly that.

Mark's position is a common one. He says he is saddened but my story and isn't sure of the basis of my position. Perhaps he might read more widely than homophobic scholars. the toughest hurdles he must face are his own presuppositions and church culture, ie "what he sees as God's standards". I have not twisted the Word. I know what it says and i know what it doesn't say. Its silence on key issues is deafening yet Pentecostals and Evangelicals are very happy to fill in the gaps.

As an AFL umpire I understand that the laws of the game must be interpreted and applied in light of the Spirit of the Laws. There is a similarity with God's word. An umpire can only call a free kick that he sees. The umpire can not call a decision on what he does not see and thinks may have happened, he must be absolutely certain. Too many Christians throws biblical texts at us based on many things they do not understand and do not know. As Mark pointed out in his reply, I am speaking the truth in love attempting to help a brother and sister find their way. Its not easy keeping you lot on the right path! I'm sure Mark will agree on this point.

I very much like Nicole's approach. Nicole has a very good heart and she genuinely cares about us. She is a good woman! i wonder if she keeps Mark in line? :-)

As I said, I am the only gay in this village (discussion) putting my life on the line for your scrutiny. I made myself vulnerable. I am open and honest with you now please do the same.