Are the Bush Fires the Judgment of God? (Pt.1)

Have you noticed that any time there is a tragedy or disaster in our world, some self-appointed prophet(s) starts to speak out and talk about the judgment of God? Someone suddenly remembers a vision or a dream they had. They start to cast stones and place all sorts of guilt on people.

[Danny Nahlia from 'Catch the Fire' Ministries is a classic example of this. Click here to read his public statement and here for a recent Sydney Morning Herald article where he is quoted. At times like this, Danny is an embarassment to the Christian church, as he does not speak on behalf of the majority of Christians and churches, let alone God]

I think we need to be very cautious in how we approach this. Who are we to say that these bush fires are the judgment of God? What about that person who died in a car accident last week, that person who died of sickness yesterday, or that couple who haven’t been able to have children? Are they too under the judgment of God because something bad has happened to them? Is any negative experience of human suffering an indication of the judgment of God? I think we are unwise to make such arrogant statements, as if we have God’s full perspective on life’s uncertainties. 

In Jesus’ time, there were a number of tragedies that took place (see Luke 13:1-5). Pilate killed a some Galileans and mixed their blood with sacrifices (“human evil”) and then a tower (the Tower of Siloam) collapsed and killed eighteen people (“natural evil”). Jesus addressed these two current issues but he didn’t explain ‘why’ they had happened. What he did say, however, was insightful. He said, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." 

Jesus makes it clear that when something bad happens it doesn’t mean that the person(s) affected by suffering are necessarily sinful or evil. Good and evil does not fall on people in some sort of vindictive manner. Jesus doesn’t say that these people are ‘under the judgment of God’ either. If he didn’t, why are we so quick to? 

Final rewards and punishments are not given out in this life. The Bible teaches that the righteous often endure suffering and calamities while sometimes the wicked seemed to be blessed. Like Job, we have to learn to accept both good and trouble from God, then trust in his providence (Job 2:9-10). God always acts from the standpoint of eternity and we need to live our lives from that perspective as well.

We live in a fallen world and this often results in human suffering (for both Christians and non-Christians). Some people escape and others don’t. Every day people somewhere in the world have to deal with the effect of sickness, misfortune, and death. This includes natural disasters – whether in the form of an earthquake, a tornado, a volcano erupting, a landslide, a flood, or a bushfire. 

Is God judging our State of Victoria? God told Abraham that he would even spare Sodom and Gomorrah if there but a few righteous people in the city. Are there not more than a few godly people in our State? I think there are. Let’s be careful not to immediately associate every situation of human evil (e.g. arsonists lighting fires) or of natural disasters (e.g. naturally started fires) with the judgments of God. 

Finally, we need to realise that we are in the time of God’s favour NOT of God’s judgment. The first sermon Jesus preached was from Isaiah 61. He finished reading after this sentence ... “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.” He then closed the book and sat down saying, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” What is interesting is that Jesus stopped reading in the middle of a sentence. The rest of the sentence says “... and the day of vengeance of our God.” He didn’t read that because that is not this time. Jesus introduced a day of grace and mercy for people, and we are still living in that time. His second coming will be the time for vengeance and judgment. That doesn’t mean that people today won’t at times suffer the consequences of their actions but this is not the day of God’s judgment. 

Let’s focus our efforts on helping those affected by these terrible bush fires right now, like the Good Samaritan, and avoid throwing judgment and condemnation at people in their time of need. 

P.S. For some more thoughts on coming to grips with a tragedy such as these bush fires, see Bill Muehlenberg's post on 'Wild Fires and Other Tragedies'.

Comments

[jeff]

You are right Mark. We have to be very careful not to pass it off as a judgement from God, after all his ways are not our ways.

Rather than focus on whether this is God's judgement or not, christians should maybe ask themselves what God would be expecting them to do, to bring him glory.

[michael]

hello, just a comment after finishing a study on the book of job from Moody church hour. We get mixed messages from suffering + isaiah 45v7. God works in my heart through suffering even though my theology doesn't fit so i guess i find myself in a place where i don't know what place theology does and should play as for the link between abortion and judgment there were bushfire around before those laws were passed

[Stephen Chia]

Are the Bush Fires the Judgment of God?
God rain on the just and the unjust. Christians have their problems just as non-Christians do.
We have a Wonderful Saviour and Lord. Jesus the Messiah is not a vindictive God. He feels the pain just as much if not more than those who suffered such catastrophes.
Our Beloved Lord Jesus has told us that these catastrophes would happen. Matthew 24:4-7.
These are the signs of the time of His soon return.
The main point to keep in mind is to abide in Him and His Word in us.
He has said, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Matthew 24:13

[David Towers]

Thanks Mark for a wonderfully comforting message. It saddens me to read people are already playing the blame gain and there are those who who are now stepping into the limelight with the attitude of 'told you so' such as the self-appointed prophets. This re-enforces the need for the message of Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost's book 'ReJesus' and for us all to be 'Red Letter Christians'.

[Marija]

Mark,
Thank you for your compassionate and well balanced report of the tragic bushfires.
My heart aches for all the people affected as I watch the news through tearful eyes.
It's wonderful to see that "Australia Unites" (as the news reports) in this tragic crisis
to help provide for the physical needs of the victims. Can't help but wonder how many are saved for eternity. Their eternal life matters to God as much as their needs and it should matter to us. Our God is a loving gracious God of truth and justice. My prayer is that many people will turn to Jesus and remember the Lord. We need to seek the Lord always and inquire of Him. He is mankind's only hope in troubled times, as Stephen wrote and Jesus IS coming! Shalom peace and prayers.

Ps. Check out the difference between vengeance and judgement.

***Definition of Vengeance:–noun

1. infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?

2. an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble: to take one's vengeance.

3. the desire for revenge: a man full of vengeance.

4. Obsolete. hurt; injury.

5. Obsolete. curse; imprecation.
....with force or violence.

*** Definition of Judgment:–noun

1. an act or instance of judging.

2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.

3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.

4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.

5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.

6. Law. a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, esp. a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, esp. a debtor.

7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.

8. (usually initial capital letter) Also Biblically called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.

Source: Dictionary.com

[Support Bushfire Victims]

Please support the bushfire victims by shopping at Coles this Friday.

Coles will donate this Friday's (13Feb) profits from its 750 stores nationally to the Government's Bushfire Appeal Fund in partnership with the Red Cross.

Customers will also be able to directly donate to the Victorian Bushfire Appeal Fund at all Coles stores. Donations can be made at all Coles Supermarket checkouts from Monday 9 Feb.

[Sam]

This nation was founded by Christian Father in 1902. I think with blessing comes responsibility. I don't think the legalising of abortion is a manifestation of responsible government. In Danny's post he indicates the removal of Gods protection particularly over the state of Victoria. I think a true prophetic voice warns Gods people of coming events before they happen, such as in the book of Acts 11:27 When a prophet warned of a coming famine over the whole world.
Part of pastor Danny's dream in October has by all appearances come to pass.
The Bible does indicate that the Lord will do nothing before he reveals it to his servant the prophets.
As we walk with God daily, he wants his children to know what is going to happen. He has demonstrated this throughout the Old Testement and even in the new.
So my response to this time of crisis, is God have mercy on us, we need rain, and the "fear of the Lord" to come upon this nation.
Showing compassion mercy and looking for places to serve the needy up in the fire areas, being Jesus hands and feet.

[Mark Conner]

Most of us would like to see fewer, if any, abortions in our state and nation. However, to create a direct link between a recent law passed by some politicians to the suffering of those in the bush fires is preposterous. It is poor theology as well as a lack of wisdom and compassion on his behalf.

Danny Nahlia does not speak on behalf of the views of the majority of Christians and churches. He is acting like a self-appointed prophet who speaks only for himself. In moments of tragedy such as these, it would be good if he would simply be quiet and stop being such a ‘loose canon’, doing nothing to help the cause of Jesus Christ here on earth.

[Jumping In]

I learn so much theology from reading your blogs. Thank you so much for this. There is no stronger argument against such behaviours as Danny's than God's living word. And words like his do so much damage in misrepresenting God. Mark I'm interested in how you respond to Sam's post about Danny's comment about God removing his protection. I'm sure there is a theological reason why that scripture is being taken out of context. It's so scary how scriptures can be twisted to support wrong thinking. As Christians how can ever know enough about God's word without taking courses in Theology so we can protect ourselves from this sort of misrepresentation?

[Marija]

Well spoken Mark.

[Paul]

Hear hear, Mark!

May God save us from those in positions of influence such as Mr Nahlia, who claim to know the mind of God, misusing their authority by projecting their own judgmental agendas into His mouth.

As for the "prophetic dream" of October, all and sundry back then were made aware that this summer was likely to be an horrendous one for bushfires. You didn't have to be an Isaiah or a Jeremiah to see this tragedy coming.

[Lynne Baker]

Thank you Mark for your words of truth from the bible - the source of truth. Well meaning people can use prophetic gifts in error, therefore it is so important that whatever we say must be in line with God's Word. As followers of Christ, we must set the tone of compassion, love and practical help to anyone in trouble or need at any time, and most especially at a time of such tradgedy as these fires have brought. None of us are in a position to point fingers of judgement, but instead, let us all as believers raise our prayers to God for the salvation of the people in this wonderful nation he has given us.

[Andrew Magrath]

Great post Mark

Couldn't agree more.

Andrew Magrath

[scott aitken]

Mark, great to hear your voice as a leader of one of the larger congregations in Melbourne. Speaking up against the link between the recent 'Abortion laws' and the bush fires.
You have done so in a considered and appropriate manner.
Thanks
Scott

[Kaffein]

So coincidental and apt. I've blogged about it too! See my response to Danny's dream. http://kaffein-nated.blogspot.com/2009/02/australian-abortion-laws-to-blame-for.html

Also on the global economic crisis. http://kaffein-nated.blogspot.com/2008/12/who-do-you-say-i-am.html

Rock on, Mark!

[Matt]

Mark,
Thankyou for your response to Mr Nahlia's proposition. I heard Derryn Hinch yesterday give a monologue response to the press release and whilst I disagreed with Mr Nahlia's summations I was also wrestling with how to put into words a response to Mr Hinch's often one sided view of Christendom. As I reached the end of the 2nd paragraph in your response I almost let out a very loud "Halleluyah" in my office of around 80 people! A well thought out and considered response is just what this needed. Thank you Mark.

[Matthew]

Thanks for having the boldness to speak the truth of the Word!

[Jud]

Below was my post on Mr Nahlias blog, as it will probably be moderated (deleted), I have added it here for an additional viewpoint.
It was just after a post cheering that the judgemental views were biblically correct.

"Sure Revelation says the whole world will be destroyed.
..but it also says to remove the plank from ones own eye before pointing out specks in others. I’m assuming everyone here pointing the finger of judgement is perfect and never sins.. never lies.. is never angry or proud..etc.

By saying these comments you are saying God ranks abortion as worse sin than pride.
Yet pride was the first sin, surely a really bad one? God threw lucifer out of heaven for pride.
How many proud pastors do you all know.. are they all about to be burnt too?

ALL have sinned!!! probably everyday!!! (my hand is high too), so best to thank God for his grace and mercy to us all, and start loving people into the kingdom… not attempting to judge and blame them in.

Comments like this are blaming, accusing and judging...which is actually biblically INcorrect.
- Judge not lest you be judged."

[John from Brisvegas]

It’s getting late and I don’t know if anyone will get to read this but I’ll post anyway.

I have “a word” for Danny Nahlia. “keep your mouth shut! You’ll serve the kingdom better that way!”

You’ve given me compelling reasons to comment. For the record, I am a self-confessed megachurch refugee with a strong allergic reaction to Pentecostalism and especially Danny Nahlia’s brand. If I lived in Melbourne I probably wouldn’t go to Mark’s church but that doesn’t stop me from acknowledging that his comments and teachings are balanced and more closely aligned to the Bible than other megachurch pastors in this country. I also enjoyed an interesting digital dialogue with his wife a few posts ago and was impressed with her views on controversial biblical topics. I make this intro so you can put perspective on my comments that follow.

I had a quick read of Danny Nahlia’s bio on his website and he sounds (at face value at least) well-intentioned and sincere about wining souls to Christ. But his zeal cannot compensate for his foolishness (or lack of wisdom). His public statement is a product of bad theology made even worse by abysmally poor exegetical and hermeneutical work (biblical interpretation). He claims to have obtained his credentials from AOG (how comforting!) but some of the greatest heretics in the church today (from several denominations) have PhD’s in theology. Credentials help but don’t insulate one from deception. But let’s leave that for another blog.

His ‘revelation’ was based on a dream and 2 Chronicles 7:14 the proof text darling passage of revivalist charismatics: “if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land”.

These words were given to Solomon in a dream (!!!) after he dedicated the FIRST EVER Hebrew temple that took him 7 years to build. He and God entered into a covenant on that historic day in the nation of Israel. Replacement Theology claims that the new covenant is a replacement of the old (as opposed to an extension or addition to it) and that means we can take ANY promise given specifically to Israel and apply it to a New Testament church because though these promises were made to Israel they are actually fulfilled in the Christian Church, not Israel.

Now there are numerous prophesies, especially Messianic, given in the Old Testament concerning the new (Peter quoted Joel on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:21), Jesus quoted Isaiah in the synagogue (Luke 4:21) etc), but to take all the promises given specifically to Israel and transfer them to the church-literally-it is a dangerous ground to take, because you then have to adopt the curses as well since they come with the package. Some of which include affliction with incurable boils, tumours, festering sores and unstoppable itching (Deut 28:27), cannibalism (Lev 26:29) and the tither’s favourite curse (Mal 3:9).

Now Danny Nahlia took all this concept even a step further and applied it to the whole state of Victoria at large, believers and unbelievers alike. Call me a simpleton but the words “my people, who are called by my name” cannot possibly include the whole state of Victoria indiscriminately. And where exactly in the Bible does Danny look to make a case for God granting or removing “conditional protection” from a state or a nation in the NEW covenant? Any protection privileges a Christian enjoys is a direct result of his covenantal relationship with God through Christ who has made us “perfect” in God’s sight (in position), not because of some legislation that favours the Christian agenda.

And SAM, the example you quoted “that the Lord will do nothing before he reveals it to his servant the prophets” does not fit in a New Testament context. The office of the OT prophet has no place in the new because in the NT “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son” (Heb 1:1). NT and OT prophets are not apples-with-apples in their function. The famine warning that Agabus gave is more the exception than the rule. NT prophets affirm rather than foretell like fortune tellers, especially on public issues like these. Once you step outside the Scriptures and claim extra-biblical revelation, if you accept it, you have to treat it as authoritative as John, Mark, Luke and Paul’s writings. Because if IT IS God who really spoke, he should be no different to the God of the Bible. I’m yet to meet someone who has the guts to say that what God told him personally is as binding as the words of Matthew or Jeremiah. How do you prove it is God and not your own imagination or bias, let alone you know who? This kind of extra-biblical “revelation” is dabbling to a spiritual realm than can’t be tested for authenticity.

THE FALLACY OF THE ABORTION ISSUE MANIFESTO

It’s a no-brainer that abortion is murder. But that’s just it, it is one of the many types of murder and one of the myriad sins committed daily in a fallen world. Is decriminalising abortion going it stop it altogether? NO it’s just going to make it harder to find a doctor that will do it.

Is prostitution a sin? Yet it’s legal. You can obtain a licence to open a brothel in Victoria if you meet the legal requirements. Is God any happier about legalised gambling or prostitution than what he is about abortion? Or about ethically reprehensive but perfectly legal marketing campaigns? (Google “whisper marketing”) Sin is sin. If we were to test all the federal and state legislations against biblical standards we would find plenty to get upset about.

Danny is one of those well intentioned but grossly misguided Christians who believes that the kingdom of God can be advanced by changing legislation that ‘Christianises’ the community values. Here’s a newsflash. Some of the strongest churches in the world have been established in nations that are totally anti-Christian to the core (Muslim states, former USSR, China etc) I haven’t seen God burn those nations down because their laws are anti-Christian.

YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE MORALITY!!! “for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”(Gal 2:21) If the Spirit of God doesn’t convict people of sin, punitive legislation isn’t going to do it. (Has America’s crime rate reduced because of the death penalty?)

Last thought for the day. If you claim God said something that he didn’t then you’re making him out to be a liar. I have a feeling God doesn’t like being called a liar any more than we do. In our puny world we sue people for defamation of character.

OK enough ranting for one day!

[Stephen]

Sam,we were not founded by 'Christian Father' in 1902. It was 1901 - and that's not being picky, get the important facts straight. Know when your nation was born. And it wasn't a gathering of pastors who signed off on the constitution, it was our politicians. And I question the dream... just because someone enjoys placing the word pastor or prophet before their name does not legitimise everything they say or do. I'm sure many Victorians have had dreams of fire, but they are not linking it to their issue of the week. He's been wrong before, and embarrassingly so. Mr Howard to be re-elected anyone? Amazing how quickly THAT vision disappeared from his website! What next? He has a dream in which he is wearing nothing but his underpants?

I'm sick of the hate and the superiority of many Christians. The opposite of Jesus.

[jeff]

This is a time when Christ-followers can bring glory to God and help bring others to God by not being judgemental, accusing, prophesing....

We need to comfort, help, emphatize, etc and show love as Jesus would do. This is when we bring others closer to God or we drive them away by being self-righteous, "we know and have it all" mentality.

Non-believers are watching and listening. A slightest deviation from the showing of the love of God will just drive a wedge to their believing.

So, as true christians, one should always pray to God for wisdom and guidance in the way we talk and act.

[michael]

John i really liked your comments i think you are right.Common grace i think its called with the rain falling on everyone. The promises apply for confidence and having a good outlook but bad things still happen (job). Prophets today Jesus Christ holds that office don't be allow tv style prophets such u in they have no power to save and even if they do have visions who cares jesus is still god in the flesh

[Denis]

Danny stopped short of saying that the alleged arsonists and firebugs were merely executing the will of God and hence should be praised for their obedience!

Perhaps their rallying cry was "catchthefire".

I cannot help but wonder how he would have responded if a Muslim mullah preached that the fires were Gods punishment of Christian Australians because of their immorality in permitting their women to not wear a veil!

[Denis]

I am so grateful to God that I attend a church that is blessed with so wise and compassionate a leader as Mark Conner

[Rhiannon Dowding]

My husband and I are survivors of the Ash Wednesday fires and we have very vivid memories of the experience. We experienced the blessing of God in so many ways. It was because of the disaster that we came to know Jesus as our Saviour and Lord... God is not in the business of punishing anyone, he simply keeps his promise in Romans 8:28. People who say this is God's judgment need to get to know Him. God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him and even those who don't.

[Phil]

Mark, great to see your strong comments on this issue and well done for taking a strong stance. I believe your comments are totally appropriate.

[Mallini]

Reading your post comments only goes to say that our Lord Jesus is just and merciful. To hear of testimonies of people receiving the Lord only goes to show we need to pour out more "Unconditional Love". Let us come together in unity in prayer as we work as a community to reach out to these bush fire victims and the helpers.

[Iain]

What amazed me was that someone was saying that God's judgement is on the state of Victoria, but not on Australia . When you think of it it's so silly. We have plenty of abortionists running around here in Queensland killing lives in the womb.... After we had severe rainfall and flooding in North Queensland no one was saying that God's judgement is on Queensland. But if you follow the logic then if the bushfires are God's judgement on Victoria the flooding in North Queensland should be the same for Queensland! Sounds a bit silly doesn't it...

[Stephen Chia]

Thank you Mark for alerting us to the article by Danny Nahlia. Once again the Words from Our Beloved Lord Jesus has proved true in Matthew 24:11

"My prayer is that many people will turn to Jesus and remember the Lord. We need to seek the Lord always and inquire of Him. He is mankind's only hope in troubled times," Marija.
My very sentiment exactly and thank you Marija for your post. I stand in agreement with you.

[Lionfish]

Great post John from Brisvegas.

[Craig Anderson]

Thanks for your leadership Mark.

[Matthew Lokot]

Rhiannon I really liked your clear comments. I think you summed up the issue beautifully and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Matthew Lokot]

Mark, I came across this blog on The Age that quotes you as "a determinedly different view". It's good to see our senior pastor known as a voice of reason in these sorts of times. You are so appreciated.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/failing-to-understand-the-nature-of-an-understanding-god-20090211-84of.html

[Maureen]

Thank you Mark. We are so privilidged to have such a leader as you. A leader who leads!! Leading a wonderful teaching team and a compassionate congregation.
I believe God is with us all the time during both good and bad. He carries us tenderly when the going gets tough and doesn't ask for thanks. I try to remember ALL the time that God is good, God is faithful, God is wonderful. He is our loving father. Do not judge, because we do not understand God's thinking, simply trust in Him. One thing is sure, we must not put ourselves on equal footing with God.

All the knowledge and learning in the world can be misinterpreted and errors made. Sometimes misinterpretion is dangerous (Danny' comment). Most of us act in good faith with the knowledge and life experience we have at the time and do our best. I am so glad I am not a member of Danny's church because with the comments he has made I am afraid it would turn me away from our Loving Father instead of bring me closer to Him.
To round this out, I repeat I am privilidged to have a leader who is a compassionate and good thinking man.
Thank you Mark

[Simon]

Hey Mark,

I have always thought your articles were balanced & insightful but this article seems emotional & the scripture contexts used seem out of place.

Jesus said, "But unless you repent, you too will all perish" thus implying we are all sinners & non of us have the right to God's protection unless we repent & seek Him. This is exactly what Danny is saying. He never said it was God's judgement & that God caused it. He said he feels God has lifted His hand of protection off Victoria due to its sin. This is definitely biblical. The devil is then the one who brings the destruction.

I am disappointed an influential church like Citylife is so passive when it comes to dealing with the uncompromising Word of God. We must walk in love but at the same time call sin sin. The wages of sin are death & thus people who refuse to accept & acknowledge God will eventually suffer this penalty both on this earth & afterwards. That is just the reality.

We must share the truth, in love, that only Jesus & the protective hand of God can save & protect people on this earth & for eternity. Otherwise people who reject the Lord & embrace their sin are left to the hand of the enemy, which has no mercy & brings only destruction.

Anyway, the wheat & the chaff, goats & sheep etc etc are being divided as Jesus is on His way. Best we get ready, stop playing church & actually get serious about God & His Word.

[Simon]

Ps - Job was living in fear not faith. Thus he wasn't as perfect/sinless as everyone keeps professing. Living in fear is sin. The whole Job story doesn't justify all Christians negative experiences, ie I am holy & righteous like Job & this is just a test. Sometimes it is sin. What's the problem with admitting this, repenting & getting back on track? I though that was the whole message of Christianity. Sinners needing God for salvation, protection, provisions etc etc.

Job 3:25-26 (Amplified Bible)
For the thing which I greatly fear comes upon me, and that of which I am afraid befalls me. I was not or am not at ease, nor had I or have I rest, nor was I or am I quiet, yet trouble came and still comes [upon me].

[Barry]

VENGENCE IS MINE SAYS THE LORD

The debate rages on as to whether God brought the fires in Victoria, or allowed them to happen as a judgement for the sins of the Victorian government. Whether you believe, or disbelieve, that Pastor Danny Nalliah heard from the Lord about the fires is irrelevant. It is clear that these fires are a sign of the times. (Matthew 24:3-14)

Yes, God is a loving & merciful God, but He is also a just and righteous God. If you believe that He would not allow bad things to happen to good people, then you have either not read the bible, or you choose to ignore the hundreds of scriptures in both the Old and the New Testament, which say otherwise.

Uzzah died when God's anger was aroused against him. Uzzah was just trying to save the Ark of the Covenant from falling, so why did God kill him? He died because he disobeyed the Law of the Lord. (1 Chronicles 13:9-10)

In the New Testament eleven of the twelve disciples did not die a natural death.

Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, performed amazing miracles and was stoned to death for it. Stephen saw the heavens opened and Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. Jesus didn't stop the stoning, He watched Stephen die. (Acts 7:54-59)

There are many discussions about the book of Revelation as to the timing of the rapture, but I have not heard many on the fact that one quarter of the world population will die when the fourth seal is broken (Rev 6:8). When the 6th seal is broken the people cry out "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb".
When the sixth trumpet blows, a third of the remaining people are killed. (Revelation 6:16).

When Job went through his trials because God allowed the devil to test him, what did God say to Job? He didn't answer Job's question about why He had allowed it to happen, but rather demanded that Job answer His question. "Who is this that questions My wisdom with such ignorant words"? (Job 38:2)
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? (Job 38:4)

If you have any doubts about how mighty God is, or how small and puny you are, read Job chapters 38-41.

Deuteronomy 28 gives the blessings and the curses. Keep the commandments and be blessed. Don't keep them and be cursed.

Australia has a strong tradition of “mateship”. All Australians are equal under the law, but this does not mean that everyone has equal wealth or property. Some people view God as their “mate” in heaven, but make no mistake God is a Sovereign, Righteous and Holy God and He cannot condone sin. Do not underestimate the Holiness of God. God is calling us to repentance and holiness in these last days. God cannot lie. If He said the curses will come upon the nation if they do not obey His Commandments, then they will. It is time for us to repent of our sins and to bring this country back into submission under God, or suffer further tragedy.

[Simon]

Great post Barry. Spot on!

[Bianca]

wow Rhiannon!
Thats so awsum how God works!!
Blessings

[K]

Hello all... lots of interesting posts on the fires and Danny N. Thank you Mark for your post, I learnt from it. I actually think that both sides of this argument have a point - I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers though, but I'll risk the fallout.

Firstly, it should be clarified that Danny DIDN'T say that the fires were caused by God. He said that the ungodly decisions of men moved the state out from underneath God's protection, and so the devil then has access to kill, steal and destroy. It is quite horrible to blame the Lord for such despicable fires. However, I think that some people confuse the issue of spiritual cause-and-effect, with the outcome being God's will. It is not God's will that any should perish, but millions do... so there are other influences acting.

Given that there are spiritual ramifications for each of our personal decisions in life, whether good or bad, the same is true for decisions made by governments - the Lord deals with people on a personal level and he also deals with nations. I believe that the church should be providing the comfort/support to the individual people affected by this disaster - taking the love of God to the people. I believe that when Jesus replied to the disciple's question about God's judgement in disaster (Mark's post), he was concerned for the individual man's soul, and so directed His answer towards each person requiring a personal, living relationship with the Lord. Yet there are numerous OT examples of Israel or other nations experiencing judgement because of their actions as nations. And some of the prophetic books state that in the future countries will be dealt with on the national level because of the decisions they make.

Also, some people equate judgement with physical death. I am not convinced that this. And a judgement can be in the positive as well as the negative. Israel was judged and went into captivity, yet we have the nation of Israel today. I think to linger too much on judgement clouds the issue - however, I do believe that our actions (whether personally or as a government) can open the door to the devil. I also know that sin in one area of our life, can allow attack in another area. Both Jesus and Paul said that Satan was the current god of this world – he is the one bringing tragedy.

I also think it is dangerous to think that a majority view held by the church must be God's view and that the loud mouthed, brash prophet is necessarily wrong. There is a ditch on either side of the road - best not to fall into either side. I do think that what we are seeing here is different perspectives coming from different callings/giftings, mixed with human imperfections on both sides.

Danny's calling is very "out there'. He often makes me uncomfortable, and I sometimes think he is wrong, though John the Baptist and Jesus made just about everyone uncomfortable at some stage too (not that Danny's in their league :)). I do think his comments are very, very poorly timed. I was initially offended at his comments. I do think they will now make it more difficult to connect some individuals with the Lord, though really, the Lord is bigger than all of this. And even when the Lord walked the earth, many scoffed and were offended at him, so I don’t know that we should be too concerned about the church being brought into repute.

To paraphrase Rob Bell (Everything is Spiritual dvd), it might be that a God who sits outside of the creation would say of both sides of the argument... "Yeap".

[Marija]

My prayer is that the Church of Jesus Christ will not become a divided, weakened body and lose it's power in effectiveness to reach the MANY unsaved. The devil loves nothing better than to see division among Christians to keep us BUSY! Time is SO short and there are MANY standing in the valley of decision today. Jesus IS coming! That is HIS promise to us! We need to be found going about our Father's Kingdom business, when He does come!

LORD JESUS, have mercy on us all to forgive and RESTORE! Shine the light of Your glory on all things hidden in darkness and destroy the works of the evil one. Keep us standing strong in our faith and united in Your love, under the precious blood covering of Jesus. Thank You Abba. Amen

[Concerned]

I and many of my friends know Ps Danny personally through our church and while he does much good work and is generally well intentioned, these claims are an embarrassment to us and it is good to see a respected pastor give a more sympathetic and balanced view.

[Annonimous]

Thank you for your insight into the matter. I was able to share your point (which is correct by the way) to other friends (which had taken a negative view of the church on this matter). Thank you.

[Lucas]

Well said Mark. Keep leading with honesty and integrity; the Christian community is blessed to have you in leadership. Keep your eyes on Jesus, and keep providing others with the direction to seek him for the comfort they seek

[Mark Rabich]

I have read a great many people castigating Danny for claiming 'judgment' and 'punishment' from God. Unless the media release from CTFM has been edited since its initial release, neither word appears ONCE in the statement, so most of the comments here (including the title of Mark's post) strike me as totally irrelevant because they don't accurately address what he wrote. It seems to me that the removal of protection (which is what IS mentioned) is something quite different, as Job experienced. And Job was not directly 'punished' by God, as far as I'm aware.

I'm no supporter of Danny and don't go to an AOG - in fact, I have virtually no interest in his ministry - but I think some of the comments here are quite unwise themselves. In fact Nalliah's statement actually lays the blame for this at the feet of the devil, not God. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me, if you want to disagree, disagree with THAT.

It seems to me, that the MEDIA has used those two emotive words to get a response, folks, and it's sure worked, hasn't it? It's a sad day when the MSM is dictating the response we should have to a brother, whatever we may think of him.

[Mark Butler]

It is clear that Ps Danny Nalliah did not outright say that God caused the fires, but the implication is very strong that He (having perfect foreknowledge) allowed the destruction & death to occur BECAUSE of the abortion law being passed.

My problem with that is not that God would remove His hand of protection because of a nations stubbornness in rejecting Him, because that is clear both in scripture and in reality, however what I do have a problem with is this: how can we stand up and say to anyone - let alone in public - that such and such a tragedy was a result of such and such a sin. Surely no-one can claim such knowledge! I believe it is the height of presumption to say such things, and therefore it walks a very fine line on being judgemental.

I believe that God has appointed a time to judge, I believe that is why Jesus came. He came and bore all our sins and all the punishment for all of sin for all of mankind for all of time. Therefore by saying that God has, even just by removing protection, allowed a massive tragedy because of one particular sin, we are saying that the work of Christ was not complete and we deny that all judgement has been set for an appointed time - sounds a bit vindictive to me. There have been dozens of laws across our nation that could be at least in part considered immoral, and in all but vague symbolism Australia is a secular nation, independent of God... so surely this paints God as both highly inconsistent, and forgetful of the complete atonement of Christ.

So to me, even from a theological point of view, the comments of Ps. Danny Nalliah do not fit with the God of the Bible.

Let alone the complete insensitivity of the timing, nature, and intent of the comments. As well as the example Christ set of identifying himself with suffering, not "classifying" or "politicising" it.

Love your heart Mark Conner.

[Dave Q]

Mark I want to thank you for this post. It was very well balanced and helpful.

On this issue I have two thoughts on the above post and comments.

1. When Go brought judgement on His people in the Old Testament it is usually happened after sending a number prophets to warn them over a period of time. Not many things just happened without warning. God always gave the people a chance to turn back to Him.

2. All prophecies need to be tested. Does it line up with God's Word? Does is build up, encourage or challenge the hearers? Has it come to pass?

[John from Brisvegas]

SIMON, BARRY, K

It should be a prerequisite to read the entire blog thread before posting comments, as much of what you’re arguing against has already been addressed.

An important disclaimer once again: I’m neither into megachurches nor Pentecostalism, particularly Danny’s kind. I don’t go to Mark’s church as I live in Brisbane nor would I go if I lived in Melbourne. I hope this is sufficient to convince anyone reading this that I have no vested interest whatsoever in defending Mark, his beliefs or his church. I am however interested in defending the truth!

SIMON & K Your arguments contain logical threads but YOUR PREMISE is wrong. It is not founded on biblical thinking or biblical evidence. This thinking is naïve, simplistic, totally unbiblical and ultimately flawed. Where do you see in the Bible that God offers ‘conditional protection’ or protection in general in the NEW Testament TO AN ENTIRE NATION? For that matter where do you see ANY biblical guarantee against 100% FULL protection for Christians individually? The NT is full of warnings about enduring suffering of all kinds. Just wanting to live a Godly life is enough to put you in the firing line (2 Tim 3:12)

And sorry to disappoint many of you, but THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a “Christian nation” in New Testament terms. There is “the church” both local and universal which is part of EVERY nation. That’s the “bride” Jesus is coming back for. You can’t compare any modern nation to the OT state of Israel. Israel was unique as it was the ONLY nation on earth with a theocratic government (governed directly by God). You are applying OT thinking in a NT world. The way that believers relate to God has totally changed in the NT because of Christ.

Here’s a reality check. Nations like Zambia, Nigeria, Tonga, Samoa and Brazil have more Christians per capita than Australia could even dream of. They are the closest thing to a “Christian nation” if ever there was one. Yet they suffer from all sorts of problems like any other country on earth, especially economic ones. No special protection privileges there. And yet the UK which is undoubtedly one of the most godless, Christless and secular nations on earth, has enjoyed unprecedented prosperity in the last 20 years or so. If God was to judge nations because of their evil or godless regimes, He should have obliterated Afghanistan from the face of the earth as the Taliban was by any stretch the most evil government in modern history. Then there’s Uganda, Zimbabwe etc. I have a sneaking suspicion that God is “holding back” because He is merciful toward those who live there and wants to save them through the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like Mark said yesterday, we are now still in God’s favour not judgement (yet). That will come and when it does there’ll be no doubt that God caused it. But now, the door is still open for the harvest.

Therefore the idea of “national protection” does not come from the New Testament. Now unless all the news bulletins are fabricated lies, I see bad happening on every corner of the planet. What is God exactly protecting the ‘nations’ FROM? Aids is spreading, more wars than any other time in history and lately the financial meltdown that has swept the planet. Furthermore, as Barry mentioned Matthew 24:3-14 Jesus foretold of natural disasters that would be part and parcel of the end times. Their frequency is increasing all the time.

Think about your assumptions for a moment.

• If God “removed” his protection from Victoria, we must assume that it was there before but not there now? What exactly was God protecting Victoria from, because last I checked Victoria has had plenty of problems like every other state, economic, social, environmental etc.
• The “trigger” for God’s protection removal from VIC was the decriminalisation of abortion. So other than abortion, God didn’t seem too bothered with legalising gambling, prostitution or other ungodly practices. Is this somehow God’s pet hate, because I read somewhere that pride scores pretty high on his sin-hate list and he goes out of his way to oppose it (James 4:6)
• Is God somehow more angry with Victoria than any other state with “ungodly laws”? He should have burned Sydney down a long time ago with their legal permissiveness towards the glorification and glamorising of homosexuality (mardi gras anyone?)
• How does He feel about Tasmania’s legalising of same-sex marriage? Here’s an excerpt from Tasmania’s Same-Sex Marriage (Dissolution And Annulment) Bill 2008 Part 1 Section 6: “The Supreme Court of Tasmania shall, in the exercise of its jurisdiction under this Act, have regard to: (a) the need to promote, preserve and protect the institution of same-sex marriage as the union of two people of the same sex to the exclusion of all others voluntarily entered into for life; ……(c) the means available for assisting parties to a same-sex marriage to consider reconciliation or the improvement of their relationship to each other” etc. etc
• Why remove protection from regional Victoria and not metropolitan Melbourne? After all Melbournians are closer to where Parliament meets.

If you want to define God’s treatment of the ungodly before the day of judgment arrives, use Romans 1 as a guide. What does it say, does God obliterate people? NO! He delivers them over to their reprobate minds and their own lusts. That’s a form of judgment.

Finally, the last unbiblical assumption is that in the New Covenant we are somehow guilty by proxy for other people’s sins. So a Christian who voted Liberal in the last state elections is held liable and needs to repent for policies that the Labour Government has passed. Why else is Danny’s website making this appeal? “CTFM has called upon all Australian Bible-believing God-fearing Christians to repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ for His mercy and protection over Australia once again” and “Can we stop the fires? Yes we can! But it will take God’s children to rally together and repent and cry unto Him as in 2 Chronicles 7:14”

Isn’t repentance meant to be a “change of mind” and after you repent you stop practising that sin anymore? What’s the point of Christians repenting by proxy for acts of parliament if those laws continue after CTFM’s prayer and fasting?

NT repentance, forgiveness or judgment, take place at an individual level (2 Cor 5;10, Gal 6:5, Rev 20:12). We may intercede for others so God’s Spirit can lead them to repentance, but we can’t repent for them.

[Doreen]

Hi,

I agree that God did not send these bush fires or use an arsonist to do the job for Him but obviously He knew what was coming and showed a person who would be willing to speak out and warn the body of Christ so we could stand in unity and pray BEFORE the event and perhaps this terrible tragedy wouldn't have occurred or it would have been on a much smaller scale with no loss of life.

We are in the last days and God does use prophets, the Bible says in Acts 2:17"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." ....I would be very careful to judge whether someone is a prophet or not based on a difference of opinion.

Christians now need to pull together and assist the fire victims physically, emotionally and spiritually. Jesus loves them and can bring good out of this terrible event God did not plan.

Here is a quote from Billy Graham's daughter a few years ago after the terror attacks in the US...

"Anne Graham Lotz: I say God is also angry when he sees something like this. I would say also for several years now Americans in a sense have shaken their fist at God and said, God, we want you out of our schools, our government, our business, we want you out of our marketplace. And God, who is a gentleman, has just quietly backed out of our national and political life, our public life. Removing his hand of blessing and protection. We need to turn to God first of all and say, God, we're sorry we have treated you this way and we invite you now to come into our national life. We put our trust in you. We have our trust in God on our coins, we need to practice it."

[Nicole Conner]

I actually believe God does not remove Himself from any situation. I believe we paint such tiny, weeny boxes for the little god we like and make him fit in there with our outrageous assumptions, our colonial ideas, our western fix-it-in-an-instant paradigms, our hurtful, stupid, often pentecostal cliches and arrogance, and as self-appointed Nahliah shows, atrocious theology. The heart of the Gospel is what??????? It's EMMANUEL - God is with us! Us broken ones. Us who fall short every day. Us who are unable to throw a stone at anyone else because 50 sins stare us in the face. The Gospel is Good News because God came, and He still is here - He sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world (and he certainly did not appoint a "prophet"with an ego problem to do that either) - He sent his son into the world so that through Him we - us despicable ones - can have LIFE! I am outraged at Nahliah's claims, i am outraged at the way he twists things in the face of so much grief and suffering. I am outraged that there are people who buy his rhetoric. ANd if you are outraged at my outrage - turn your next email into cash for the bushfire victims - the ones who according to a false prophet are under judgement. ANd, Simon, you are right in one thing - I am EXTREMELY emotional about this. I know another guy who was in the face of religious bigots - he called them white washed tombs, dirty cups, hypocrites.

[Doreen]

Seems like the harsh criticism of Danny Nahliah is getting quite personal? There are obviously other issues going on here! Let's rather pray for those who persecute us, especially if they are fellow Christians...we are all part of the same body.

[John from Brisvegas]

Quotes from Billy Graham's daughter, defending “the prophet”, God warned him to warn others so he could avert the disaster (the 2004 tsunami, Bali bombings and 9/11 victim families should be outraged since they got no warning). What exactly were they meant to do to “avert” it? Repent for other people’s sins?

If modern Christians placed the same confidence for truth in their Bible as Muslims place in their Koran, these blog threads would be half their size. We look for explanations and rationalisations anywhere but the Word of God. Folks, anything outside the Bible is a faulty GPS!

We’ve made it all about abortion, being God’s trigger to remove a national protection that He never promised to give and have assumed that in this scummy, fallen, sin stained world (hhhmmm Australia must be part of) no other sin gets under God’s skin other than abortion. What a low view of sin we have and how RIDICULOUS is this logic???

Our sense of discernment is second to none (we’ve had a discernment by-pass). I agree (with whoever said it) that when the antichrist appears, many of today’s Christians will follow him hook, line and sinker because they have no discernment whatsoever.

I’d like to go to bed tonight thinking that Jesus Christ continues to forgive sinners who in their sinful state have or approve of abortions. Same as gays, murderers rapists, child molesters and every other despicable sin imaginable. GREAT NEWS!

[PS I am not making light of abortion. I am a 46 y.o. abortion survivor as my parents wanted to abort me because they were poor and my arrival was “unscheduled”. The non-Christian obstetrician refused although he was regularly performing abortions, but never on the mother’s first childbirth. God’s mercies!]

[Paul S, Ferntree Gully]

To Simon, Barry K, Mark R, and Doreen,

Spare me the semantics about "Danny didn't say it was God's punishment, but instead it was the removal of protection" etc, etc. The clear implication was that Victoria's abortion laws were responsible for the fires. To use a verse like "But unless you repent, you too will all perish" is using scripture out of context to the extreme, as that verse is referring to the final judgement.

To say "Yes, God is a loving & merciful God, but He is also a just and righteous God..." in defence of Nahlia in this case is illogical and offensive. Tell me with a straight face that the picture of an 8 month-old baby girl I saw today, who died a horrible death at Kinglake, represents someone who God executed his justice and righteousness upon (or allowed to happen).

Apart from the apalling theology sprouted by you people, common sense tells me that a loving, merciful and righteous God would not punish, or remove his protection from, innocent babies in dreadful bushfires, in response to abortion laws which kill other babies. Please.

[Kevin of southbank]

And what of Andrew Landeryou's support of Catch the Fire?

[Judy Wong]

Hi my work colleague (a non-believer) was really upset by The Age article 'Fire 'divine retribution', says minister' (11/2/2009). Even as a non-believer, he believes that this article is just wrong. He mentioned that even if he does not believe, he believes God would and could not be so unloving as to act in this manner.

Thanks Mark for your response to this article. The CityLife newsletter email arrived quite timely in my inbox at work. My colleague and I had just been discussing the article which he raised to my attention, knowing that I was a Christian.

Your blog comments have re-affirmed what I had been trying to assure my colleague. Hence, this was just excellent to receive and pass on to my friend.

Keep on writing and sharing. It really helps.

Here is another article I found in the Age today:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/failing-to-understand-the-nature-of-an-understanding-god-20090211-84of.html?page=-1

[Nicole Conner]

I wish "prophets" would agree -
Danny Nahlia says bushfires are judgement against abortion
Westboro baptist says God hates Australia and is judging it because of
homosexuality
and a few personal emails have told me it is because of the way we handle the refugee issue.
If God would just make up his mind.... then again.... maybe God never spoke to them in the first FLIPPIN' place!

[F.Lokot]

Thanks so much for this post, Mark. Only last night I was reading Luke 13 and I thought, wow, Jesus' response to disasters is so different to the doom and gloom prophecies that have been cast around.

I think that if we ask "What Would Jesus Do?" I am pretty sure He would've responded in love and mercy - and I'm pretty sure He expects us to, too.

I lived in Gippsland for 23 years, and many of my family and friends are in the fire affected areas. What these towns need is practical assistance, not judgment and guilt trips.

[lee ann]

aren't we all getting a bit personal here? i think itys' ok to disagree but the anger heard i some of your voices through email is appalling and not what Christians should be like and whether pastor nalliah is right or wrong, you can say his comments are wrong but to show so much anger and call him theologically not sound is a different matter especially when we all haven't heard from him directly. calm down everyone and focus the attention out there and not get into the "christian politics"

[barry]

agreed leeann, i dont know who all you people are but if you don't watch it you will be doing christians and non christians a diservice!

[Sam]

Well said, Mark! My pastor here in WA would refer to self-appointed prophets like Danny as "space cadets" or as you said, "loose cannon".

I guess our best response is to continue to be prayerful about all this, and be alert - and on the watch for we can often tell who's a space cadet by their lack of accountability.

"Test all things, hold on to the good." 1 Th 5:21 (NIV)

[Nicole Conner]

Lee Ann and Barry, I tell you what - have a read of Danny, self-acclaimed prophet's blog - when you read it you will find that what so many people have already painstakingly pointed out in great detail - he IS theologically unsound. And he is claiming to speak on behalf of God - therefore, i will refute this man. And I am angry - very angry. I recall Jesus got pretty ticked with that sort of pharisaical baloney too. We have heard from Danny directly - we have heard from him on his blog, in the paper, on the radio - we have heard what he believes. We have also found that those of us who have tried to hold him to account on his blog have had their comments deleted, or their emails left unanswered. How convenient. I tell you what is not helpful - is someone in the face of such incredible heartache making such bizarre, unsound comments. And if you don't like people calling him to account - then maybe don't read this blog :)

[Stephen]

I'm not sure anger is a sin... when Jesus was confronted by the money sellers in the temple he pretty much lost it! Righteous anger. Compliance is one of the great faults of Christians in general in my experience. And by the way, we have heard from him directly - via his media release! Follow this link, and I'm sure that's about as direct as you get.

http://www.4bc.com.au/displayPopUpPlayerAction.action?&url=http://media.mytalk.com.au/4bc/podcasts/pastor.mp3

And by the way... how DO you hear anger through email? Just a question. Lee Ann, if we think Danny is bringing Christianity into disrepute (not that it needs any extra help) we have a duty to call him on it. And as he seems to be moderating the comments on his site quite closely, this place is the next best.

Barry, thanks for the advice. I would hate to be doing you a disservice.

[Linda]

It is ridiculous to claim that God "remove His protection" over a piece of legislation. Look around..every state and council in Aust is made up of laws and regulations governing lots of other things such as alcohol, brothels, sex shops etc etc and these laws and by laws have existed for a long long time. If God is ticked off by "bad law", I am sure He would by now be glaring at every state and municipality in Aust. By the way, China (one of the most cashed up economy at the moment) has a one child policy for decades and they have recorded natural disasters every couple of years dating back to BC. Please don't tell me that is also legislation.

[Jud]

Doreen, I dont think it is wise to blindly beleive the prophesy of any man..who ever they are!!!
We are supposed to test prophesies and hold fast that which is good. Just because someone says they are a prophet does not make every word they utter directly from God. We should test them, take the words and see if they line up with the Bible.

Please understand I am NOT implicating Danny by this next verse, but it is very sobering and scary scripture to highlight why we should test everything..

The words of Jesus..
Mat 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So Jesus said we will actually have "shmistians" who will actually do 'wonders' and cast out demons and prophesy and claim to be Christian, yet God will say I never knew you..

I'd say that is sobering enough to test what any man says or does before blindly accepting any prophesy.
MANY will be decieved by false prophets..

[lee ann]

nicole, why don't read this blog? because this blog is for people that are only against pastor naliiahs's comments and the pastor nalliah's is for those who do? People get so dragged into the thinking of their leaders - it's scary! we should all be able to have our own opinions and be able to voice them too.

[Mark Corea]

Hi Mark, agree with your post and share your sentiment about the tragedy. (Lost a colleague at Marysville).

Got to say though one comment on your blog (and I know they were some very emotive ones) made me uneasy. While hanging to the truth that God is love, we got to be careful we don't swing the pendulum to another extreme. For example "God is always at work for the good of those who love him and even those who who don't" is 'eisegesis'.

[Jud]

Hey lee ann
The difference is on this blog your opinions are argued with..
on Catch the fire opposing opinions are deleted..

That in it self should raise some questions.

[AndyD]

You spelt "Nalliah" wrong.

Nalliah's dream, as reported last year, involved people being gunned down in the streets - then fire. He's failed to mention the gunman this week. Why?

You commentary leaves me confused? Do you think God interact in our current, Earthly lives in any way?

If "yes", then how do you determine which good and bad things are His handiwork?

If "no", then what is the purpose of prayer?

[Cheryl]

Well said Doreen, Lee Ann and Barry. You are entitled to have your opinion too!

It seems to me that if more time was actually spent PRAYING for the nation than writing scrolls of unkind words about another Christian Pastor we could rapture tomorrow!!

Nicole, unfortunately, you are sounding very bitter and nasty not emotional. To quote you “and if you don't like people calling him to account - then maybe don't read this blog :) You did say that none of us is perfect; we are all sinners, so why then should people (who are agreeing with you) be calling Ps. Danny Nalliah to account? Jesus is the Head of His Church. He is more than able to correct a son or daughter, so let’s leave Jesus to do His work in His body and perhaps focus on getting the love-walk right and being an example to younger Christians.

[Jonk from When Facebook Goes Crazy]

His name is Danny Nalliah by the way.

[JOYce1026]

Hello Cheryl,

Now you are judging Nicole. Are you her judge? She is not bitter or nasty at all, just very passionate about what she believes to be the truth. None of us are perfect for we ALL fall short of the glory of God. We shall all stand accountable before God oneday to give Him an account. We all need to speak the truth in love. Don't we? :) Truth without Love is Brutality & Love without Truth is Hipocracy. We need to employ both Truth & Love. Jesus weeps in intercession for us all. Have a nice day and keep on praying in tune with God's heart where it's needed.

[John from Brisvegas]

OK I may be suffering from CRD (compulsive ranting disorder) and am seriously trying to develop a VEA (verbal economy addiction). Reading some of the posts on the last page sounds like school kids squabbling in the yard. “How dare you tell me to…”

Once again, some of the comments show that people either don’t read their Bibles, don’t understand what they’re reading, or simply don’t care what it says.

The comment “don’t read this blog if…” is fair play to me. We visit here voluntarily not because we have to, especially those of us who don’t go to CityLife. If the “atmosphere” offends you it makes sense to abandon this blog. I used to blog on a particular US site where a lot of Lutherans and Calvinists on heat used to visit. It became obvious to me after a few weeks that a lot of those holy bloggers from the Self Appointed Doctrine Police were gargling on cyanide smoothies before they blogged, so it became impossible to have a civil dialogue without wearing a mask to protect oneself from the toxic fumes. Sulphur was shared with reckless abandon. I stopped blogging there. Not my cup of tea, so it was the most logical thing to do.

This IS an emotive issue and some of us expressed our emotions in different ways. I am guilty of the two longest winded posts, not because I had nothing better to do yesterday but because I wanted to explain (especially for those naïve and innocent readers who posted before me) why and how Danny’s comments were wrong.

If you consider God as your father, Jesus as your brother, Lord and Saviour, and the kingdom of God as your extended family, you can’t help BUT take it PERSONALLY. Your family’s name is dragged in the mud. Danny’s motives and personal integrity are irrelevant at this stage. Whether you run someone over by accident or on purpose, you can still kill them. A life can be lost regardless of your motives. Danny’s comments were reckless, ill-timed, unwise, unbiblical and foremost PUBLIC!. And we’re meant to just sit back, bite our tongues and Que Sera, Sera, Whatever Will Be, Will Be? Refuting and correcting error (heresy by definition in this case) is OUR duty. Judging the motives and intentions of the hearts is God’s job (1 Cor 4:5) Paul confronted Peter for his hypocrisy publicly. His justification was that he “saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel” (Gal 2:14). Jesus commended the Ephesian church for their discernment and intolerance towards false apostles “you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false” (Rev 2:2).

Danny obviously stands behind his statement because in his mind he is absolutely convinced he is right. I’d like to know whether he would be willing to publicly repent, if and when he realises he was in error. Should we hold our breath?

[drew]

I don;t think cheryl is judging nicole, now this can go round and round and round but it's not about judging here. I come from CL and am all for mark and nicole but we got to be careful and that's why I'm glad that their blog is so open and honest and allows for debate and correction. I love the way they run the church, preach etc. However, I do as well sense some bitterness and nastiness in nicole's tone and i think we need to be careful what we say and do at all times. For example, if you go into danny nalliah's bolog, everyone is commending him- his blind followers. if you go into someone elses blog, they are being blindly praised by their followers. i know other bloggers items have been deleted, thats what makes this blog great but i think we should really be able to put our opinions forward and not be made a blind follower as such.

[Corey Turner]

Mark,

I think your comments are insightful and needed. I also have made similar comment on my blog. If you would like to check it out - here it is. activatechurch.wordpress.com

Corey Turner
Activate Church
Lead the Change

[JOYce1026]

Hello Drew,

Yes, we aught to be careful in what we do and say as Christians. Don't we? Presuming that Nicole is bitter and nasty is not judging her? Come on. Do you or Cheryl know her personally? Her tone is one of passion. There is a difference to being bitter and nasty. She's a very passionate woman with a strong sense of justice.

Real Christians follow Jesus by faith and not a person.